Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Personally, I think this comes down to a difference in style. There's gritty, and there's "Grim and Gritty."

Correct, and with respect to Dr. Strangemonkey, he doesn't get grim and gritty in the same sense that GnG afficiandos do. (There's another thread for that.)

It seems to me that the direction Mearls is after with Iron Lore is gritty, heroic, and (to a lesser extent) cinematic.

I actually think "cinematic" is among the best descriptors for this style and is one of the primary things he's going for. Everything we have seen so far is certainly more cinematic than gritty.

So PCs are larger than life, and will be doing things you'd expect from Indiana Jones, John McClain, or James Bond (or the Three Musketeers, Zorro, Conan, or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser if you want more genre-appropriate characters).

Indiana Jones is not grim and gritty, nor Jackie Chan, 3M, James Bond, or Zorro.

They are not at all in the same genre as Conan and Fafhrd/GM.

But, hey, it's not as if everyone can agree on the definition of GnG. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" things and it's highly subjective.

Sin City is about as "grim" as it gets, but it's not "GnG." While I was watching Sin City I felt it was a pretty gritty, dark, and realistic movie, but when Dwight jumped off the side of the building, my brain came to a screeching halt and I said, "Whoa! This is a comic book movie after all."

Die Hard has its moments that stretch verisimilitude (moreso in the sequels than the first). It's a tough one to place but cinematic edges out gritty here, too.

Arrow Ladder? It is physically impossible for an archer to bury arrows deep enough into a brick wall that a full grown adult could use the arrows as a ladder. I don't buy it. It's over-the-top "wahoo." (I'm fine with it against a troll, though.)

Does this "ruin" Iron Lore? No, obviously it does not. Iron Lore sounds like a rollicking FUN time. I also happen to like playing cinematic games, very much; and of course we all want our characters to be able to do things that are not possible in the real world.

But there is a difference between playing a game that allows us to do things we cannot do in the real world as a matter of skill and opportunity, vs a game that allows us to do things that are simply not possible within the laws of physics.

And it is understandable if the typical GnG player does not find Iron Lore a perfect match.


Wulf

 

[physicscarp]

To be honest, I've only glanced over the first few and last few pages of this thread, so if I missed something please forgive me.

I'm wondering what books, movies, etc. are examples of grim and griity settings/worlds/adventures? Obviously the works of Howard and Leiber continue to pop up, but are there others? Or is the entire genre based on the works of these two authors?

 

[TwinBahamut]

It is probably a credit to Iron Lore that not only is it the first third party supplement I have ever been seriously interested in, it is making me delurk and register for these forums.

Hello ENWorld!

Anyways, I honestly have no idea what kinds of fantasy the authors like Howard and Lieber write. Nor have I seen the movie Die Hard. I don't watch many movies.

However, Iron Lore greatly fascinates me because it seems to capture so much about what I like in my preferred genre of fantasy: the really old stuff. Tolkien is an infant compared to the stories I like. Sigurd (or Siegfried), Finn MacCumhail, Beowulf, samurai and ninjas, chinese bandits, King Arthur, Odysseus, and countless other stories of folk legend are what interested me long before I ever read a modern fantasy novel or was exposed to D&D. And to put it bluntly I vastly prefer those kinds of stories to everything that has been written since Tolkien.

Iron Lore captures that kind of feel I like. It doesn't require large numbers of magic items or even mages, neither of which are prevalent in folk tales. It also doesn't limit itself to what is strictly mundane or realistic, which matches the feel of those old stories. After all, those stories contain all manner of things such as the Irish hero Finn MacCumhail decapitating a man by backhanding him.

Really, compared to the things folk heroes pulled off, Iron Lore is almost tame. Even the much talked about arrow ladder ability isn't too far fetched. I am a weakling and archery novice, but even with a mere 20 pound bow and blunt target arrow I can put an arrow deep enough into a target that it could probably support some weight. A skilled archer with a middle ages 150 pound bow and barbed arrow could probably put up a decent makeshift ladder. Maybe not into brick, but cetainly into a tree, or some other kind of medium hardness material. It certainly is nowhere near as logic defying as Legendary Shot. And who would take Arrow Ladder anyways compared to all the other cool Sniper Shot abilities?

I am really looking forward to Iron Lore, and intend to convert a D&D homebrew setting over to it this summer.

 

[Capellan]

Especially notable for having ... Capellan ... At last we know what he looks like

Somehow, I doubt it was worth the wait

 

[Nightfall]

Now Cappy! Don't down grade yourself. This is a great way to get Gamer chicks!

 

[JohnSnow]

Indiana Jones is not grim and gritty, nor Jackie Chan, 3M, James Bond, or Zorro.

They are not at all in the same genre as Conan and Fafhrd/GM.

But, hey, it's not as if everyone can agree on the definition of GnG. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" things and it's highly subjective.

Fundamental difference of opinion I guess. I think of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser as gritty and heroic. Neither they, nor Conan, meet my definition of "Grim and Gritty." So I don't disagree that Iron Lore is not GnG, I just disagree with the assertion that because it's not, it doesn't represent early pulp sword & sorcery (Conan/Fafhrd/Mouser) well. But as you said, these things are highly subjective. Personally, I think of Lieber's Sword books as gritty, heroic fiction. Other than the elements of the Twain being manipulated by forces outside themselves, the stories aren't particularly "grim." Both of them live to a ripe old age, after all, and rampant death of protagonists is a pretty solid staple of GnG fiction. The fact that they take on Cthulu-esque nightmares and live to tell the tale makes the point even more solidly.

Arrow Ladder? It is physically impossible for an archer to bury arrows deep enough into a brick wall that a full grown adult could use the arrows as a ladder. I don't buy it. It's over-the-top "wahoo." (I'm fine with it against a troll, though.)

Per the ability description, the arrows have to beat the wall's hardness. Per the 3.5 PHB, stone has a hardness of 8. So it's not possible to for an arrow to beat the hardness without either a critical hit (which don't apply to constructs/walls) or an extra strong bow.

IF a stronger than average archer were to use a reasonable poundage (say 75 lb. draw weight?) bow to shoot arrows into a wall, you could produce a penetration high enough (300 psi+) to lodge the arrows in a wall. People in the modern era seriously underestimate the penetration power of a bow.

Someone could then use those arrows as essentially footholds/handholds to climb up the wall. The only real problem is whether the arrows will break under the weight, not whether they'll fall out.

I essentially see this as planting the arrows deep enough to turn them into pitons. And in a masonry or brick wall, you're probably shooting the arrows into the mortar, not lodging them in the bricks/stone. Difficult? Yes. Could I do it? Not on purpose, but I have missed and lodged an arrow between the bricks in a brick wall (with only a 30 lb. bow, I might add). So is it physically impossible? No.

 

[Mac Callum]

It is probably a credit to Iron Lore that not only is it the first third party supplement I have ever been seriously interested in, it is making me delurk and register for these forums.

Hello ENWorld!

Hello! Welcome, and well met!

Anyways, I honestly have no idea what kinds of fantasy the authors like Howard and Lieber write. Nor have I seen the movie Die Hard. I don't watch many movies.

Whoa. I haven't read those guys either, but I thought everybody's seen Die Hard!

However, Iron Lore greatly fascinates me because it seems to capture so much about what I like in my preferred genre of fantasy: the really old stuff. Tolkien is an infant compared to the stories I like. Sigurd (or Siegfried), Finn MacCumhail, Beowulf, samurai and ninjas, chinese bandits, King Arthur, Odysseus, and countless other stories of folk legend are what interested me long before I ever read a modern fantasy novel or was exposed to D&D. And to put it bluntly I vastly prefer those kinds of stories to everything that has been written since Tolkien.

Iron Lore captures that kind of feel I like. It doesn't require large numbers of magic items or even mages, neither of which are prevalent in folk tales. It also doesn't limit itself to what is strictly mundane or realistic, which matches the feel of those old stories. After all, those stories contain all manner of things such as the Irish hero Finn MacCumhail decapitating a man by backhanding him.

Really, compared to the things folk heroes pulled off, Iron Lore is almost tame. Even the much talked about arrow ladder ability isn't too far fetched. I am a weakling and archery novice, but even with a mere 20 pound bow and blunt target arrow I can put an arrow deep enough into a target that it could probably support some weight. A skilled archer with a middle ages 150 pound bow and barbed arrow could probably put up a decent makeshift ladder. Maybe not into brick, but cetainly into a tree, or some other kind of medium hardness material. It certainly is nowhere near as logic defying as Legendary Shot. And who would take Arrow Ladder anyways compared to all the other cool Sniper Shot abilities?

I am really looking forward to Iron Lore, and intend to convert a D&D homebrew setting over to it this summer.

Man, I bet you wore out your green-cover sourcebooks from 2nd Ed.

Good description, though. Great description!

As for the skilled archer, this guy, who forges his own bodkin arrows, says you can put an arrow through 1/16" of steel or 6" of seasoned oak. That's definately good enough for a ladder. I suppose you could just pretend that the Archer aims for cracks in the stones or the mortar between bricks, if it helps you 'feel' it.

(Eh, the hyperlink button doesn't seem to be working - see here: http://yarchive.net/metal/arrowheads.html, and search for 'punch')

 

[Mac Callum]

Per the ability description, the arrows have to beat the wall's hardness.

Wow, I totally missed that. That sure makes it a lot easier to believe.

People in the modern era seriously underestimate the penetration power of a bow.

I've heard that a modern crossbow can put a bolt through an engine block. That's certainly good enough.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Hello! Welcome, and well met!

Whoa. I haven't read those guys either, but I thought everybody's seen Die Hard!

Man, I bet you wore out your green-cover sourcebooks from 2nd Ed.

Good description, though. Great description!

As for the skilled archer, this guy, who forges his own bodkin arrows, says you can put an arrow through 1/16" of steel or 6" of seasoned oak. That's definately good enough for a ladder. I suppose you could just pretend that the Archer aims for cracks in the stones or the mortar between bricks, if it helps you 'feel' it.

Actually, I started D&D with third edition, never having played AD&D second edition. I'm a bit younger than the average guy around here (ten years younger if the 1974 talk around here is any indication). So I have no clue what the green-cover books were. Sorry.

It is why the Mike Mearls comment about first edition NPC classes went right over my head. Can someone explain that one a bit more? And ask Mr. Mearls to stop ignoring the younger D&D players with his references back to that era?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

However, Iron Lore greatly fascinates me because it seems to capture so much about what I like in my preferred genre of fantasy: the really old stuff. Tolkien is an infant compared to the stories I like. Sigurd (or Siegfried), Finn MacCumhail, Beowulf, samurai and ninjas, chinese bandits, King Arthur, Odysseus, and countless other stories of folk legend are what interested me long before I ever read a modern fantasy novel or was exposed to D&D. And to put it bluntly I vastly prefer those kinds of stories to everything that has been written since Tolkien.

That is indeed an excellent summation. I finally got around to reading Gilgamesh this past summer; it's a great read and its absence from your list encourages me to recommend it to you.

I think the term "mythic heroism" is a pretty good fit for Iron Lore.

At any rate it is a much better descriptive fit than "low magic."