Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, I guess I'll chime in with my take on Iron Lore.

Is it Grim and Gritty? Heck no. I think this system is "reduced magic, high fantasy." Are some of the abilities "wahoo?" Maybe, but then again, things that people want to try in many games are "wahoo." So far I think this system has a lot of potential.

I agree with all of the above. I suppose it bears repeating that I think Iron Lore will be great and it sounds like lots of fun.

I think there's a distinction that needs to be made here. Saying that IL isn't grim-n'-gritty isn't the same thing as condemning it for lacking grim or grit. But if it produces characters that are more in Xena's league than Conan's, let's make sure the right allusions are being made.

Exactly.

Ok, maybe I'm just being dumb, but I really don't see how the Arrow Ladder ability is "wahoo." It's freakin arrows shot into a surface at regular intervals. What's so weird about that? The Hardness rule prevents it from becoming wahoo. If an IL stunt, feat, or yet-to-be-revealed class ability allows a PC to climb a wall by driving his hands through oak or stone, then yeah, that would be wahoo. Driving steel-tipped arrows into wood or flesh is perfectly reasonable.

You don't suppose that a character in Iron Lore will be able to do 6 points of damage with an unarmed strike (which would penetrate oak) or 9 points of damage (which would penetrate stone)? The hardness rule specifically does not prevent it from becoming wahoo because it is so easy to circumvent.

Putting a restriction on a wahoo ability in order to explain how the ability might reasonably work, but failing to acknowledge that the restriction is almost no restriction at all, does not reign in the wahoo of the ability.

And yes, supporting the weight is part of it. I have a hard time believing the chain of improbabilities that lead to this ability working: getting all the shots placed perfectly, while penetrating the hardness to a sufficient degree to bury the shaft into the surface so that it will support the weight of a grown man (or four) and not snap the shaft-- all in six seconds.

I just don't like what it bodes for the style of Iron Lore, which is neither (a) what I was hoping for or (b) what it has been put forth as. That's it. That's the sum of my concern, folks. Again, Iron Lore sounds like a lot of fun. It just sounds closer to M&M to me than (for example) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and while I do enjoy playing both kinds of games, I was hoping more for WHFRP.

Wulf

 

[buzz]

I'm pretty sure this rule first appeared in Jonathan Tweet's Omega World mini-game in Polyhedron.

It did, and Mearls even specifically commented that "someone ought to steal that reserve point idea, but pronto" (well, someting to that effect).

 

[buzz]

I just don't like what it bodes for the style of Iron Lore, which is neither (a) what I was hoping for or (b) what it has been put forth as. That's it. That's the sum of my concern, folks.

FWIW, Malhavoc has been pretty up-front about the power level in IL. It was said fromt he get-go, iirc, that IL PCs would be on par with D&D PCs, i.e., fit inot the CR system with no tweaks.

Again, Iron Lore sounds like a lot of fun. It just sounds closer to M&M to me than (for example) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and while I do enjoy playing both kinds of games, I was hoping more for WHFRP.

But, we've already got WFRP.

And, for that matter, GT!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

FWIW, Malhavoc has been pretty up-front about the power level in IL. It was said fromt he get-go, iirc, that IL PCs would be on par with D&D PCs, i.e., fit inot the CR system with no tweaks.

Right, and maybe the mistake was mine, but I assumed that the power level would be the same but the style would be more low-fantasy. I guess I thought it's not power that's the problem, it's the application and execution of power.

I'm starting to think though that folks who are suggesting just putting a cap on advancement have the right idea. It just might not be possible to express a 12th-20th level d20 character without the wahoo creeping in.

(I'm so glad we've all had a meeting of the minds on the word wahoo without having to further define it.)

But, we've already got WFRP.

But it's not d20!

And, for that matter, GT!

But Mike Mearls didn't write it, Sue Cook didn't edit it, and Malhavoc didn't publish it!


Wulf

 

[Felon]

Sounds like IL would handle a Conan archetype just fine too. Conan isn't exactly a normal man in terms of strength or endurance. He's capable of tackling lions, frost giants, nagas, and giant serpents one-on-one, bringing down swarms of were-hyenas with normal arrows, and even tangling with amorphous god-like entities.

Note that when I speak of Conan, I'm not talking about Conan by way of Marvel Comics or the utterly inferior work of the parasitic hacks Lin Carter and L. Sprague De Camp.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Right, and maybe the mistake was mine, but I assumed that the power level would be the same but the style would be more low-fantasy. I guess I thought it's not power that's the problem, it's the application and execution of power.

I'm starting to think though that folks who are suggesting just putting a cap on advancement have the right idea. It just might not be possible to express a 12th-20th level d20 character without the wahoo creeping in.

(I'm so glad we've all had a meeting of the minds on the word wahoo without having to further define it.)

...but wait there's more!

In general I'm good with wahoo, I just think you put a term like that into the debate and you better expect it to get debated and negotiated pretty regular.

There is one thing, though, it's very hard for me to reconcile the idea that high wahoo must equal not low-fantasy.

I'm not arguing that IL doesn't immediately give off a low fantasy vibe, though I might argue that that's how it will actually play since upping the stats of the characters effectively lowers the threat of the high fantasy creatures*, but I would argue that there's a lot of low fantasy that has a pretty high level of wahoo.

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser running from muggers in a tent and later taking out some sort of Frost Wyrm with a cat and a pike come to mind and those aren't even the most egregious examples. Conan wrestling with gorillas in priest suits or surving a blow from a Pictish war axe only because he made his helmet himself in 'proper' barbarian fashion also stand out.

So unless Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser's high wahoo level disqualifies them as low fantasy then I think you just got a call a spade a spade and say it's the wahoo and not the fantasy level that bothers ya. Or both, hey, whatever.

* - on the other hand even a comparatively nerfed flying brontosaurus that spits fire and speaks spells is still a flying brontosaurus that spits fire and speaks spells.

** - on the gripping hand invisible flying furry manta ray and dewinged interstellar elephant god. Just sayin.

*** - on the other other other hand there's no doubt that Fafhrd/GM get a lot more tension out of climbing a mountain than you are likely to see in many other fantasy short stories. So it's all too likely that you've really got to view your wahoo as existing in some sort of balance between wahoo and non-wahoo. Cause sure Xena and Fafhrd/GM will all of them take giants in single blows and then get captured randomly by simple mooks and they'll fight for forever without loosing limbs and you'll never read a story and expect any of them to die, but you will never see Xena get stuck in a chimney while climbing a mountain and have it be anything other than a comedy moment. I don't know if IL will feature that level of tension over skill at every level or even if it will at all, but if it does I think it would then be a little unfair to criticize it for the ability in question rather than simply questioning the ability itself.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Note that when I speak of Conan, I'm not talking about Conan by way of Marvel Comics or the utterly inferior work of the parasitic hacks Lin Carter and L. Sprague De Camp.

I assumed as such, and I think the poster you're responding to did as well. The only one of those I haven't personally seen in an actual Howard story is the shapeless god-like entity and I'm certain that's just cause I've missed it. The dewinged interstellar elephant god comes to mind as a replacement but I can't recall if Conan actually killed it.

Some of the more recent Marvel Comic Conan issues have been really very good.

They had a very beautiful rendition of the Ice Giant's daughter. Even if it does make you realize, once again, how much inconsistency there is to Conan's characterization without the whole of the prose being present.

 

[Particle_Man]

The Conan comics by Kurt Busiek and Cary Nord are by Dark Horse, not Marvel. They are getting good reviews. In the last issue Conan solo'd 4 demons with a knife he found on an old Wizard's tomb (apparently, it was close and Conan could have died). Earlier, he had been tricked and robbed by a merchant and two women. I think that Iron Lore would fit both these ideas nicely.

 

[Particle_Man]

For those that want to limit the wahoo, you might look at Castles and Crusades. It pretty much stops advancement at level 12 (in theory you could go further, but the book pretty much says "Why bother? Start a new character."

 

[Andor]

Another way to keep levels in check.

If it's really the high levels that kill the brain cells, why not swipe the experiance chart from Palladium? Since it does not key rewards to level your advancment will be slower and it will probably take years to pass the 5-7 range.

Wulf, untill you rip the levels out of it I don't think you will ever see a d20 product that satisfies your definition of GnG. The level based hitpoint gains make it impossible to have a mid level character be threatened by a few muggers. Although if you really want to put the fear of daggers back into your characters use the 'massive damage save threshold = con' rule. One good hit from an axe can kill any character capable of failing a save then. Of course then problems crop up if ressurection isn't plentiful and cheap.... "I thought we were the most powerful guys around. So how come everytime someone dies an equally powerful dude we've never heard of crawls out of the woodwork to sign up?"