Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Irda Ranger]

This is the nature of my burning professional curiosity and the reason I continue to participate in a thread I should have (continued to) abandon.

It's like crack, isn't it?

Not that, you know, I'm suggesting you've done crack or anything, ...

By the way, from now on that whenever John Snow posts something, just pretend there's a post immediately after it by me saying "Yeah!" or "Kickass" or "John, how are you so frickin' spot on?"

 

[JohnSnow]

First off, Irda/Mac Callum thanks for the compliment - it's greatly appreciated.

That is to say, if I were designing Iron Lore, and I created an ability like Arrow Ladder, and I were fishing around for other powerful abilities to round out the other classes, having set the precedent, I might include a few more like it.

And, if arrow ladder is a single outlier that doesn't fit the thematic focus of the rest of the work, it should properly be edited out of the book.

I think this is a difference of perception between the two of us about what Arrow Ladder actually IS, thematically speaking. You see it as "over-the-top wahoo," whereas to me, it's more of a gimicky, "what a skilled archer could actually DO with arrows" kinda thing. I confess that it's on the outer edge, but I don't really think it's "over the top."

By way of comparison, I had similar discussions on the WotC boards when D&D 3.5 introduced the feat "Manyshot." The immediate reaction by many was that it was WAY over the top. I, however, disagreed. Now, to a certain extent, I'll admit I'm forgiving on archery feats because I've seen (and messed around with doing) some pretty amazing archery tricks in real life. For example, after Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves came out, I loaded a couple arrows in my (far-from-heroically-strong) 30-lb. bow and, well, tried to replicate the "Manyshot" trick. For the record, I did not modify the arrows in any way (as Robin did in the film) to make the shot easier. In the process, I put two arrows into a target from a distance of 15-20 yards. Neither hit the center, and they were separated by about 3' of distance. Both, however, did actually hit and STICK. My conclusion was that this "stunt" separates the power of the shot between the arrows. Ergo, with a 30 lb. bow, penetration (w/2 arrows) about equals that of a single arrow from a 15 lb. bow (maybe a bit less due to losses). With a 60-100 lb. draw weight, I imagine the stunt would be effective up to about 3 arrows (the limit for the feat, IIRC). So, the Robin Hood: Men in Tights arrow bandolier is goofy...but Marvel's Hawkeye shooting 3 arrows with his 200 lb. bow(!) (and dropping them effectively "in a line") isn't. Impressive, sure, but not quite over the top. And I see arrow ladder the same way. Obviously, not everyone will. But to me, it isn't thematically that far off.

I confess to being as curious about the spectre situation as anyone. Refresh my memory, can spectres attack while incorporeal?

 

[Felon]

The Conan comics by Kurt Busiek and Cary Nord are by Dark Horse, not Marvel.

LOL, these young whippersnappers these days, they think they know what Conan comics are about. IN my day, Conan comics were huge-ass 80-page black-and-white deals that Marvel published twice a month for twenty years and recycled the same three or four stories in a non-stop loop.

Now, that's what a Conan comic is! Speak not to me of this Buisek fellow lest I skew your gizzard!

 

[ThirdWizard]

I confess to being as curious about the spectre situation as anyone. Refresh my memory, can spectres attack while incorporeal?

They are always incorporeal, however, they switch between being manifested on the Material Plane and being completely in the Ethereal. When on the ethereal they are invisible and insubstantial, only affected by a very few attacks. When manifested, they are sort of half and half, so you get the 50% miss chance because your attack might just pass right through them.

My guess is they'll just hand wave it away. At level X your attacks count as magical for purposes of Damage Reduction. But, I could be off, that just seems the easiest way to handle it.

EDIT: Correction: not all incorporeal creatures use the ethereal and must manifest. That's only ghosts, my mistake. Spectres are not like this. They can't dissapear like a ghost can.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I confess to being as curious about the spectre situation as anyone. Refresh my memory, can spectres attack while incorporeal?

Well, I don't believe they can ever be corporeal, so yeah. They touch the corporeal target and inflict damage (1d8) and Energy Drain of two negative levels.

 

[Irda Ranger]

First off, Irda/Mac Callum thanks for the compliment - it's greatly appreciated.

You're more than welcome; especially since you save me the trouble of typing what I was just about to say.

I think this is a difference of perception between the two of us about what Arrow Ladder actually IS, thematically speaking. You see it as "over-the-top wahoo," whereas to me, it's more of a gimicky, "what a skilled archer could actually DO with arrows" kinda thing. I confess that it's on the outer edge, but I don't really think it's "over the top."

This is my feeling too. I'm no bowhunter, but did have a longbow as a kid and did win the Boy Scout campwide archery contest (against kids who were bowhunters). Arrow Ladder doesn't seem at all wahoo to me because I've seen arrows lined up like that. In 6 seconds? No, but then D&D has always required a little suspension of disbelief. In this case, it's not much. Not for me, anyway.

BIG ANNOUCEMENT - They have changed the name.

Iron Lore is now "Iron Heroes"
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL_PR2

Also, the new spotlight shows how Feats are mastered, but I haven't read it yet, so more commentary later.
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiary_mmearls_14

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

My guess is they'll just hand wave it away. At level X your attacks count as magical for purposes of Damage Reduction. But, I could be off, that just seems the easiest way to handle it.

Or maybe gain ability where they can power-up for some tokens and have their attacks harm [Incorporeal] subtype creatures. Sort of like psionic characters expending their psionic focus to do certain things granted through feats.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Or maybe gain ability where they can power-up for some tokens and have their attacks harm [Incorporeal] subtype creatures. Sort of like psionic characters expending their psionic focus to do certain things granted through feats.

From what we've seen so far tokens are class specific, and there's been little in the way of common abilities, but that's just from what we've seen so far. We know that players have been collecting for a couple of different token pools at once so it may very well be that there is some sort of generic fate point pool such as Wulf suggests.

The psionic focus mechanic is a pretty interesting thing to bring up. I wonder if there's going to be something similar to that. Something where you have to build up a charge through skill rolls and then expend it. Non-cumulative, however, so that it's not like tokens, and also not at all class based.

That would be pretty neat. Someone mentioned Solomon Kane doing something like that far earlier in the thread.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Like the new name. The thread title seems obsolete though now, that or ironic.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Or maybe gain ability where they can power-up for some tokens and have their attacks harm [Incorporeal] subtype creatures. Sort of like psionic characters expending their psionic focus to do certain things granted through feats.

Well, neither the Archer not the Hunter gained anything like this, and I doubt they'd design a system where only 1/2 the classes could fight Incorporeal monsters.

It's possible that Feats will give you new ways to spend tokens, but I think it will have to be a general mechanic, and not a Feat. If you make it a Feat, it becomes either a necessary Feat or a Feat that you choose not to take based on the implicit trust in the DM not to through certain kinds of monsters at you. That's a level of forced-path/ meta-gaming that I'm not comfortable with.

I don't know if it will be a hand-waive or not, but it really should be general and broadly available - which of course, suggests it will be a hand-waive of some kind. But who knows, Mearls has spent a lot of time brainstorming on this and may have arrived at a novel solution.