Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Capellan]

Which is why it is utterly baffling to me that in the play tester comments, we've seen them so far running a dungeon for 3rd level characters, and hyping how wonderful it is for running murder mysteries for a 7th level party.

Well, playtest group #2 does also mention fighting a dragon and a babau.

Edit: in case there is still anyone who doesn't know, playtest group #2 is mine

 

[Felon]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. But that approach has nothing to do with CR. CR is a numbers game: all mechanics, zero story. CR is supposed to be an absolute that does not care where the encounter takes place and without regard to the party makeup.

Wow, I'm surprised you say this. Even in D&D proper CR is a shot at a moving target that seldom scores a direct hit. I don't think even the designers themselves would treat CR as an exact science. They in fact do speak of this in the DMG.

Why expect more of IH?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wow, I'm surprised you say this. Even in D&D proper CR is shooting a moving target that is seldom scores a direct hit. I don't think even the designers themselves would treat CR as an exact science. They in fact do speak of this in the DMG.

I should have italicized supposed.

The point is that when CR works "perfectly" it is an exact science.

CR is an estimate of "the law of averages" when creatures (PCs and their foes) are boiled down to their d20 essentials. That the Gorgon is CR8 tells me that, on average, the worst case scenario is that one in four 8th level characters is going to die, but that despite this the party will ultimately prevail.

Why expect more of IH?

Because Iron Heroes is asking to be held to a higher standard.

If we're just going to "eyeball" CR, then there's no much point in touting a system that works with all existing CR.

EDIT: To put it another way, Mike is holding himself to that higher standard as one of his design goals. He's trying very hard to figure out what makes CR "tick" so that you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

But that approach has nothing to do with CR. CR is a numbers game: all mechanics, zero story. CR is supposed to be an absolute that does not care where the encounter takes place and without regard to the party makeup.

Well, but even in pure CR mode there is some slight variance according to circumstance. I mean a totally aquatic creature should have at least some boost in CR given that it will probably operate without regard to the limitations imposed on land dwellers for the conditions in which they will encounter it and amphibious creatures deserve at least some small boost to CR given that they will enjoy an advantage in environments where they can switch between water and land easilly versus creatures who take more time doing it or have no such options.

But overall I would certainly agree with the idea of pure CR. CR should be a grammar, it might affect the structure of the content but it does not rely on the content for structure.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Very well put.

And in 50 words or less!

Bah! Brevity is overrated, note for instance who actually says the line, when all is said and done nothing clocks in at under fifty words. Doesn't mean that your part of the conversation has to be lengthy, but a parts a part. They're all going to be different.

Thank-you for the compliment none-the-less. Please note that I've paid you one on the other thread.

 

[A'koss]

I should have italicized supposed.

The point is that when CR works "perfectly" it is an exact science.

CR is an estimate of "the law of averages" when creatures (PCs and their foes) are boiled down to their d20 essentials. That the Gorgon is CR8 tells me that, on average, the worst case scenario is that one in four 8th level characters is going to die, but that despite this the party will ultimately prevail.

C'mon Wulf, you're talking about CR being an exact science while saying things like "when it works perfectly", "estimate of the 'law of averages'" & "on average, the worst case scenerio"... Who are you trying to kid here?

The gorgon has the ability to wipe out the entire party in a single round or go down in a single round. There are way too many variables on both sides (especially as get into the higher levels) for many monsters to have anything but a very broad target CR. Calling it an exact science is comical.

Because Iron Heroes is asking to be held to a higher standard.

If we're just going to "eyeball" CR, then there's no much point in touting a system that works with all existing CR.

EDIT: To put it another way, Mike is holding himself to that higher standard as one of his design goals. He's trying very hard to figure out what makes CR "tick" so that you don't have to worry about it.

What I got out it was "A 12th level IH party should be about the equivalent of a standard 12th level D&D party in combat effectiveness". I have no idea what tangent you're going on here Wulf, I really don't.

I also think that if you were to create new monsters and use IH characters to measure them against, you'd have an easier time assigning them a CR than you would with far-less-predictable-in-capability D&D characters.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Which, actually, has been rubbing me the wrong way for a while now.

Mearls has essentially built a mechanic that rewards characters for doing nothing, which seems the antithesis of the high-action game premise.

Rewarding that kind of behavior would drive me up the wall.

I hadn't thought of it that way before. I'd sort of thought of it as a mechanic for recognizing effort or doing something with lost time. Hmmm, I can certainly see the case for it being a nascent complaint.

Though I certainly agree that it enforces different rhythms of furious action. With the Hunter pausing to reorient from time to time and the Archer staying silent for a round or so and then going all out. The archer dynamic is similar to that enjoyed by the Assassin in the vanilla game and I've found that in the hands of an intelligent and fun player its something the whole party enjoys. Still, if it weren't for her I could easilly picture abuse.

If all of the projectile feats feature extra actions that should make up for a lot of it.

I don't think doing nothing will be too much of a problem for the Hunter since they get their big boost at the begining and they only get little boosts for little action sacrifices thereafter.

But watching the field from time to time is a tactic my players have gotten in the habit of doing anyway so that probably defuses my sense of annoyance at having incorporated into the rules.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

The gorgon has the ability to wipe out the entire party in a single round or go down in a single round. There are way too many variables on both sides (especially as get into the higher levels) for many monsters to have anything but a very broad target CR. Calling it an exact science is comical.

I think it would be pretty hard for a Gorgon to wipe out anything other than a low level or under-manned party in a single round. There are plenty of ways to mitigate gaze attacks, particularly at 8th level.

 

[A'koss]

I think it would be pretty hard for a Gorgon to wipe out anything other than a low level or under-manned party in a single round. There are plenty of ways to mitigate gaze attacks, particularly at 8th level.

I agree there are ways... provided you know about the threat beforehand. Open door, see medusa, make your saves. In enough encounters, you'll eventually find those where everyone rolls poorly.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

C'mon Wulf, you're talking about CR being an exact science while saying things like "when it works perfectly", "estimate of the 'law of averages'" & "on average, the worst case scenerio"... Who are you trying to kid here?

I'm not trying to kid anyone, and rather than get involved in an adversarial discussion with you (especially since my guess is you have no intention of actually trying to understand), I'll just appeal to authority and state that I know what I'm talking about, and you don't.

I have no idea what tangent you're going on here Wulf, I really don't.

Obviously.