Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Oh I totally agree that there is no problem with it as yet.

It's just interesting to see how the power is ramping up and how the options that have been opened up really seem to skew towards deeper tactical thinking.

As it is a guy with sneak attack is going to love it a lot and work for it, but the fact that he also some massive death dealing weaponry means that it's never going to be as critical for him as it is for his IH comrade.

It also means that IH villains are going to have to be much better about watching their back. Flanking is going to become a pretty dang fluid dynamic.

 

[Celebrim]

So, from the way I'm looking at it, a Beserker with all 10 of the power attack feats can force every target he hits in that round to make up to 5 saving throws plus the almost certainty of a save vs. massive damage? Granted, he'll be getting a -15 penalty to hit, but he'll also probably be getting a +37 bonus to damage.

So even if just one attack hits from a raging Beserker we are probably looking at...

Fortitude Save DC 29 or -1 penalty to hit
Reflex Save DC 29 or be knocked prone
Will Save DC 29 or be dazed
Fortitude Save DC 29 or be stunned
Fortitude Save DC 15 or die
Fortitude Save DC 29 or die

Anything with low AC is toast. That reflex save or avoid being knocked prone is just broken in my opinion, because it does not take into account the size of the creature or the number of legs. Big creatures don't necessarily have good Reflex saves because thier dex is low. Beserker with Expanded mastery 3 taking a -5 penalty on the attack can force a Reflex save on an colossol Sauropod. It's like Captaaaaiiiin Caaaaaveemaannn or something.

 

[Andor]

So, from the way I'm looking at it, a Beserker with all 10 of the power attack feats can force every target he hits in that round to make up to 5 saving throws plus the almost certainty of a save vs. massive damage?

Not quite. Unless I misread it badly he gets to force one save per hit. You can't use multiple save generating feats on a single attack. (Although you CAN use them in the same round.)

 

[Celebrim]

Not quite. Unless I misread it badly he gets to force one save per hit. You can't use multiple save generating feats on a single attack. (Although you CAN use them in the same round.)

All the abilities tend to say something like this...

"A specific target need make only one Fortitude saving throw per round to ignore this effect, even if you hit him more than once."

"A specific target need make only one Reflex saving throw per round to ignore this effect, even if you hit him more than once."

"A specific target need make only one Will saving throw per round to ignore this effect, even if you hit him more than once."

The way I read it, each saving throw protects from each expanded mastery level's separate effect, its just that you never need to save more than once each each effect no matter how many times you hit in that round.

 

[Andor]

Here's what I was looking at:

Note: When using the Power Attack expanded mastery abilities, you can only gain the benefits of one ability derived from taking a high Power Attack penalty at a time. You cannot use the expanded mastery 2, 3, 5, 6, or 9 abilities at the same time. You can use only one of them on a given strike.

So only one per hit.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Andor is correct.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't quadrapeds get a generic bonus to resist falling prone?

I don't know that that's true of creatures of tremendous size, but it makes sense in principal given the bonuses to grapple and trip attacks. Though I don't have a lot of faith in the staying up power of large bipeds. T-Rex might be the exception but I gotta give balance props to anything with a tail.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I think people are jumping the gun saying the Finesse fighter's +4d6 sneak attack is "usable all the time". I agree it's not clear, but the flavor text says "opponent that's not ready for you." So I think he's implying that it's only usable in the usual sneak attack conditions.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I think people are jumping the gun saying the Finesse fighter's +4d6 sneak attack is "usable all the time". I agree it's not clear, but the flavor text says "opponent that's not ready for you." So I think he's implying that it's only usable in the usual sneak attack conditions.

The level ten mastery feat specifies once per round, so it's certainly true that even at the highest level it's not going to be all the time unless you make it all the time through clever tactics and maneuvering.

There's some debate over on Monte's boards over whether or not PA is overpowered, but I think the tactical nature of WF makes it so satisfying as to avoid controversy all together.

 

[Stone Dog]

I think people are jumping the gun saying the Finesse fighter's +4d6 sneak attack is "usable all the time". I agree it's not clear, but the flavor text says "opponent that's not ready for you." So I think he's implying that it's only usable in the usual sneak attack conditions.

I agree. Calling them "Sneak Attack damage" Pretty much implies clearly that they work like Sneak Attack does. Call it a leap of logic. Most likely in the final book the full sneak attack rules will be laid out just like everywhere else and this feat will merely refer back to them. If sneak attack works at all differently in Iron Heroes than it does for rogues then I am sure that Mike is smart enough to make sure those differences are clear.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

My call on sneak attack damage is that it will work anytime you loose active defense.

Given how every thing else works out making certain your flanks and positional tactics in general are going to become a much bigger part of everyone's game.

As someone else pointed out, a horde of mooks is a lot more intimidating when you realize how much that loss of active defense from flanking is going to hurt.