Iron Will, etc taken more than once?

[KnowTheToe]

I don't see that it would hurt. You could play test it in your group and let the PC know, that if you the DM decide it is too much, that you will require him/her to pick a different feat.

I don't think it will break the game, because it is such a small part. No PC or NPC could over power more than one save and how many times have we seen movies or read books where someone seemed impervious to certain things. Not all fighters take Iron Will right away or at all, so I would assume there would be few who took it more than twice. Wizard's beware, not all fighters are weak willed dim-wits. How could that diversity effect game balance. The wizards would not be able to assume every fighter is very suseptable to mind effect or will based spells.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I should add, if I saw all of my players bypassing all the other feats in order to stack these bonuses, then I would assume that it is more powerful than I thought and retract the offer or not allow any more progression.

 

[Mordane76]

These feats, and these saves, figure into so many areas of the engine that tweaking them, IMO, will create an imbalance. I know a lot of people think that non-spellcasters need a boost to defend against spellcasters, especially at higher levels, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

Personally, I believe the best defense is a good offense, and the best offense in this case is to fight fire with fire. With the fluid multiclassing available in 3E, a fighter can just as easily take a few levels of a spellcasting class, learn some resistance spells, and buff his way out of many spells, using up a limited resource. The feat, however, is something that can't be counteracted -- once they have it, it's always there...

Also -- opening up these feats to stack could (IMO, it will) lead to the discussion of other sundry feats being taken multiple times. I can see other feats that only provide limited bonuses, like Weapon Focus, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, and Weapon Specialization all coming into the discussion.

 

[Forrester]

I doubt very much that stacking those would break the system in any way, but I can see an argument being made. Perhaps.

However, one must concede that if a campaign is allowing Greater Spell Focus, they should certainly allow Greater Iron Will as well. If a wizard can use two feats to bump his spell DC up four, why shouldn't a fighter be able to use two feats to bump one of his saves up 4?

 

[KnowTheToe]

I doubt very much that stacking those would break the system in any way, but I can see an argument being made. Perhaps.

However, one must concede that if a campaign is allowing Greater Spell Focus, they should certainly allow Greater Iron Will as well. If a wizard can use two feats to bump his spell DC up four, why shouldn't a fighter be able to use two feats to bump one of his saves up 4?

Exactly!

 

[tburdett]

Is it unbalancing in your opinion to allow the 3 "+2 save" feats (Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude) to be taken repeatedly?

No.

I've allowed this for a year now and it's had no impact on the campaign whatsoever.

None of the players have taken any save feat more than twice.

If you decide to allow it, and then see a problem, simply change your mind.

 

[Mordane76]

What about...

Okay -- if you let them stack, then what is the purpose of taking PrC like the one mentioned above that provide the Greater Iron Will and Superior Iron Will? Isn't there an Epic Feat that one can take to increase a save? What would be the purpose of these feats when the basic feats stack indefinitely?

 

[hong]

Re: What about...

Okay -- if you let them stack, then what is the purpose of taking PrC like the one mentioned above that provide the Greater Iron Will and Superior Iron Will?

The prestige class exists to serve the campaign, not the other way around. Besides which, if a class existed whose _only_ benefit was to give you an extra +2 on Will saves, said class doesn't really bear talking about. Thankfully, there are no such prestige classes.

 

[Mordane76]

Sorry if it sounded like I'm pushing PrC, Hong; I know their ilk isn't always welcome in every campaign. Obviously, I don't know if Phaedrus uses these PrC in his campaign. I am simply trying to highlight some of the potential problems with this change that might not be readily apparent.


Ultimately... I do see where these changes might seem innocuous, but I do see very real potential abuse. It might not happen, but it COULD happen, and IMO rule changes should take this potential abuse into consideration.

 

[isoChron]

There is a feat in epic level handbook that's called Greater Iron Will or so.
Prerequisites: Iron Will
It gives a bonus of +4 INSTEAD of +2 from Iron Will.
So Iron Will seems not to stack (who would wait till epic and take it then if he could have double iron will at 9th level ...?). If you want a fighter with a great will save take a paladin . Get the feat Iron will once, take a paladin with high CHA-Score and buy a cloak of resistance and you don't have to worry about low saves any more. There are some PrC that offer something equivalent to Divine Grace, so this is not limited to a paladin (LG) only.

IMC the save boni from iron will etc. will never stack. There are enough other means to get a sufficient (!) save.

Just my 2cents.

BYE