Is 3.5 a new "edition" of the game?

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

It's a new edition all right. I understand they don't want to call it that, because people will get all confused, but that is nonetheless what it is. It's more than "a patch"; it contains rewritten and new material and ergo it's a new edition. (I guess computer software uses decimals because of the frequency of new editions?)

Some more rambling about this subject...

 

[Quasqueton]

Curious:

All you who say this is not a "new edition", would you have classified AD&D2 a "new edition" of AD&D1? The core mechanics were pretty much the same. The only heavy modification was the addition of a skill system.

And if you have to use the word "conversion" to describe updating a character or campaign to a revision. . . .

Shouldn't a "revision" entail merely adopting some new/clarified wording for spells effects or mechanic descriptions?

Quasqueton

 

[Victim]

From what I've seen so far, the differences between 3 and 3.5 seem to be about the same the differences between 1st and 2e. All 2e did was alter some character classes, revise some spells, and attempt to clean things up bit. The optional proficiency system from the Dungeons and Wilderness books was included and expanded. All the core mechanics, such as attacks, saves, stats etc remained the same. Now some of the optional feats and prestige classes from supplements will be added. The changes in monsters will probably be greater from 3 to 3.5 than from 1 to 2 because of the additional DR changes.

 

[BryonD]

The change from 1e to 2e may not have been nearly as dramatic as the change from 2e to 3e, but the differences between playing 1e and 2e were always very clear.

The changes announced so far are tweaks. If I take every change I have read about so far and implement them into my game tonight, I will know that I am still playing the same game. Heck, these changes are not even as big as some people's house rules.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I find it funny that a few people think this is a new edition, and they have not even seen it. Most of the info out is rumor and here-say. It sounds to me as if a few tweaks of certain aspects of the game to help smooth it out are being written. It is designed to help new gamers have a better game using current users feed back. From what I have read on the board, there are few people who really dislike the product they have not seen, but the few are very vocally blowing the whole thing out of proportion. My question is, how do you handle life when it really throws a wrench into your life?

Now, the last release of AD&D 2nd edition was nothing more than a hoax for money, but that was from TSR, not WoTC.

 

[Quasqueton]

To me, the difference between a "revision" and a "new edition" can be illustrated by this comparison with the only (nearly) full thing we know: the pit fiend

A revision could go like this:

Reformat the stat block to include more info and be easier to read.
- Change damage reduction to include silver - DR 20/+3, silver.
- Change hold person spell-like ability to hold monster (because 99.9% of the enemies a pit fiend will face will not be humanoids).
- Adjust feats to 1 per 3 HD to match core rules.

In effect - add one word to DR (for flavor), change one word in a spell-like ability (for functionality), and adjust feats to match the rules (for consistency).



A new edition is what they've shown:

Reformat the stat block to include more info and be easier to read.
- Change HD from 13 to 18. (Which in turn changes BAB, skills, feats, skills, etc.)
- Change natural armor from +20 to +23.
- Upgrade damage by 3 size catagories across the board.
- Increase face size.
- Reduce resistances by half.
- Create a new mechanic for damage reduction.
- Increase SR from 28 to 32.
- Increase all ability scores by +16. (Which in turn changes most other stats.)
- Add two more powerful spell-like abilities.

In effect - change every thing about the whole creature, backwards compatibility be damned.

Quasqueton

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Quasqueton a new edition isn't a complete new game - it's a new edition. By (twisting ) your logic we would still be in first edition because the monster descriptions are more or less the same?

It doesn't matter how much is changed - if something is changed, it's a new edition. The changes we've seen aren't dramatically different, but whoever have said they had to be? Try comparing two editions of a text book on - say - macroeconomics. The differences between those edition are very slight. New data, a lot of rewritten paragraphs, new, flashier layout to keep the students from falling asleep drooling all over the expensive pages, but the content hasn't really changed: It's basically the same theories, the same rules, just with a different color on the cover.

But look at it this way: If it wasn't a new edition, there would be no need to buy new books (or dowload the new SRD); the reason people have to do this, is because there are changes that are more than just errata and clarifications.

Look at it: New spells, new classes, new class abilities, new feats, new rules, new content, new edition.

Just because we're still talking about Hit Points and using the basic DC mechanism of the d20-system doesn't disqualify it as a new edition.

IMHO.

 

[Brisk-sg]

The Changes to DR, Monster Stats, Spell lists, and Base Classes means that anything with monsters, PrCs, NPCs and magic and mundain items will need to be converted.

This is a point that many are bringing up. This perplexes me, as the announced changes should have little to no impact on most previous released Core Rule Books, Splat Books, or Adventure Modules.

CHANGES TO DR
============
Based on the information currently released about the revised Damage Reduction, you should not have to alter existing modules to make use of the revised DR rules.

if we have a module with a Werebeast that has a DR 15/silver in a non-revised module, and we apply the revised DR rules, the stat would not need to be changed. The rules that govern how the DR is handled would change, which is transparent to the module. Instead of being able to hit the Werebeast with silver or a +1 or better weapon, a silver weapon would now be required.

CHANGES TO MONSTER STATS
=====================
Changes to monster stats should have no impact on existing modules. The module will still work as is without modification of the monster stats. The monsters existing within the module, or within other monster manuals, should just be considered different versions of a similiar monster. They are not cookie cutter copies. Not changing the stats of a monster in a module would likely be preferable to changing the stats as the module was likely balanced with the original stats in mind.

CHANGES TO SPELL LISTS
==================
This should have a very minor impact on published NPCs. 1st I would like to point out that we have not heard of any spells being removed from the spell lists, the addition of spells to the list should not unbalance or break any existing NPCs, thus they should not require any modification.

BASE CLASSES
==========
This category has the most chance of impacting existing material. Based on the information provided, however, I believe that most modules and NPCs should require no modification to use. Modifications that have been mentioned so far (with the exception of the much maligned ranger) are in the form of expansion of skills and skill lists. This shouldn't require an NPC to be reworked for a module or encounter unless the DM has a real desire to add a few skills points.

As to the Ranger, modifications to existing NPC rangers should not be necessary as none of their abilities are likely to be invalidated or become too powerful. If the NPC is a threat under the current non-revised rules, it will still be a threat under the revised rules and shouldn't require any changes unless the DM requires it.

The Changes to Base Classes will have the most impact on existing Player Character in my opinion, who may want to rework the character if they are using one of the changed classes. This should not greatly affect qualifying for prestige classes, however. Unless they make a very large change to skill lists, the extra skill points to certain classes still won't allow you to bypass the maximum points you can assign to a certain skill, thus limiting the Prestige class to certain levels.

-Josh

[EDITED FOR SPELLING]

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Brisk-sg, I agree that whether or not it is easy (or necessary) to convert pre-revision data is irrelevant, since, indeed, the old data doesn't break the new rules (or does it in a very unobtrusive matter).

The question you have to ask isn't how well the old data (characters, monsters, traps) works within the framework of the new rules, but whether the old rules is able to work within the framework of the new data.

If you are using the new rules, your ranger is going to look different from if you used the old rules. He faces monsters with different abilities and spells, and the rules governing the combat itself has changed.

Now, the game mechanics doesn't break if your new ranger met a pre-revision monster, but that doesn't change the fact that the monster have changed.

In other words, does it matter what set of rules (3e or 3eR) you are using? Yes, it does matter. Does it invalidate your many purchases of the former set of rules? Thankfully, it does not.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

This is a point that many are bringing up. This perplexes me, as the announced changes should have little to no impact on most previous released Core Rule Books, Splat Books, or Adventure Modules.

CHANGES TO DR
============
Based on the information currently released about the revised Damage Reduction, you should not have to alter existing modules to make use of the revised DR rules.

if we have a module with a Werebeast that has a DR 15/silver in a non-revised module, and we apply the revised DR rules, the stat would not need to be changed. The rules that govern how the DR is handled would change, which is transparent to the module. Instead of being able to hit the Werebeast with silver or a +1 or better weapon, a silver weapon would now be required.

Changes to DR effect any published monster with DR. The new system in not in addition to the old but instead of. The new edition will be ballanced for material DR not magic weapon DR so using an old version of a monster will not be balanced properly under the new rules. If you don't convert a module properly you also run the risk if you just replace a new monster with an old that the module will not allow access to a weapon that can beat the new DR type.

CHANGES TO MONSTER STATS
=====================
Changes to monster stats should have no impact on existing modules. The module will still work as is without modification of the monster stats. The monsters existing within the module, or within other monster manuals, should just be considered different versions of a similiar monster. They are not cookie cutter copies. Not changing the stats of a monster in a module would likely be preferable to changing the stats as the module was likely balanced with the original stats in mind.

See above, but it is more than premanufactured modules. All previous monsters will have imbalanced DRs meaning you need to use the new ones. Additionally the monsters are being rewritten alot (see the Pit Fiend) so CRs will be different, meaning you cant just use the new version without accounting for the differences.

CHANGES TO SPELL LISTS
==================
This should have a very minor impact on published NPCs. 1st I would like to point out that we have not heard of any spells being removed from the spell lists, the addition of spells to the list should not unbalance or break any existing NPCs, thus they should not require any modification.

This will have a major impact on any previous spellcasting NPC. Spells are being rewritten and so are spell lists. A NPC may no longer have access to spells on thier lists (either because it was removed or bumped up a level), and these spells were selected for the effects they achieve. A wizard by himself will no longer take Haste, and a substitute usefull spell will have to be substituted. Additionally spell names are changing meaning that spells may no longer be listed under the right names (Not a problem if you own the old books, but if you only own 3.5 this is a problem)

BASE CLASSES
==========
This category has the most chance of impacting existing material. Based on the information provided, however, I believe that most modules and NPCs should require no modification to use. Modifications that have been mentioned so far (with the exception of the much maligned ranger) are in the form of expansion of skills and skill lists. This shouldn't require an NPC to be reworked for a module or encounter unless the DM has a real desire to add a few skills points.

As to the Ranger, modifications to existing NPC rangers should not be necessary as none of their abilities are likely to be invalidated or become too powerful. If the NPC is a threat under the current non-revised rules, it will still be a threat under the revised rules and shouldn't require any changes unless the DM requires it.

The Changes to Base Classes will have the most impact on existing Player Character in my opinion, who may want to rework the character if they are using one of the changed classes. This should not greatly affect qualifying for prestige classes, however. Unless they make a very large change to skill lists, the extra skill points to certain classes still won't allow you to bypass the maximum points you can assign to a certain skill, thus limiting the Prestige class to certain levels.

-Josh

[EDITED FOR SPELLING]

An unmodified ranger will be frontloaded and at low levels possibly have more feats than he should. Monks are being changed as well although we don't know the details yet. As for skill points. Extra skill points can have an impact if they a put in things like Jump or Tumble. My point is these NPCs are wrong as is. Sure you can use the old ones, but since they are not balanced for the new system and don't follow the rules, I can just as easily make up random statblocks without following the rules and be just as accurate and legal.