Is 3e a GM Nightmare? Rules and beyond!

[Belen]

Never said that I did not love 3e. In fact, I doo think it the superior system, and have spent a lot of hours arguing in the edition wars in favor of it.

Again, I think that 3e is harder on GMs, which is why we're seeing so many burnout threads.

And I did like 2e, at least because I saw more roleplaying in that edition. 3e would be perfect except for the die rolling of things better left to Role playing.

 

[Belen]

Who says that I, or my friends are nerds? Non-nerds play the game too. You do not have to be a angsty, social reject to enjoy the game.

 

[sabinerak]

I found the 2e rules a lot more confusing and all the stuff with thac0 and all the inconsistencies with lower numbers being better sometimes and higher numbers being better at other times except when the moon is blue and in conjuction with Jupiter in which case lower is the best in that circumstance....

With 3e (and 3.5), the rules seem much more clarified and I like the idea that if I am really having trouble trying to decide something then there's probably a rule for it and I can simply look it up, and that in most cases the rule will actually make sense.

I'm much more into the roleplaying than the rules, but I like that the rules are there for when I need them.

 

[Cybern]

Basically, I've never seen a system that was easier to GM than 3E is.

I have, the Silhouette system by DP9. I don't know about the new Core Rules, but this system is one of the greatest. White Wolf's one is good IMO because it is not combat-oriented. Here I'm saying that these 2 are easier to GM than 3e.

But 3e is good, and I won't go back to 2e unless forced to

 

[Mallus]

Re: Re: Is 3e a GM Nightmare? Rules and beyond!

Trapping oneself with other nerds and geeks in a basement away from natural light, playing imaginary character in an imaginary world is NOT my idea of "socializing"!

It's demented and sad, but social...

 

[Holy Bovine]

I disagree.

1.) Such extensive rules give players a lot of ammo when arguing over a GM call.

This didn't happen in 1e and 2e because we were arguing over the arbitrary rather than the factual.

NOW: Hey! The orc moved within 5' of me! I get an attack of opportunity! What do you mean he tumbles out of my way? It's not fair!

THEN: You didn't say the orc was that close! It's not fair!

2.) Rules rather than roleplay: The social skills have really taken a beating in 3e.

The reason they're taking a beating is because they're more in the forefront. An 8 CHA character can have 20 ranks in Diplomacy. In 1e there was no such skill and in 2e your skill was pretty much your CHA in most cases.

3.) 3e- the PnP PC game: Anyone else notice how close 3e gets to a computer game?

Yes. I love it. What's wrong with codifying the names? What's wrong with knowing that all elementals are immune to sleep rather than having to look it up in each individual monster description? I see this as a strength.

4.) GMs have a lot more to do and consider than in past games.

Actually, I spend less time planning encounters. Once you get the hang of the Encounter Level system, this stuff is a breeze. A 2e DM planned out an adventure for me about six months ago. He didn't look at the 3e rules much and encounters were either overwhelmingly powerful or boringly simple. With ELs I can just plop stuff in and have a pretty good idea of how tough a fight its going to be. If you're having a hard time, PCgen and other such programs will quickly pound out statblocks for you.

And planning the story should take no more time than it did before.

I LOVE how the players get to build their characters every level. Before it took a couple of minutes. Now they're really spending time on this stuff. Not the number crunching, but thinking about where there character is and where it is going. Big time conceptual stuff that I used to have to beg them to do.

5.) There are so many rules that even players get lost.

So you mess up a rule from time to time. Big deal. No harm, no foul.

6.) 3e encourages player vs. GM play! nuff said.

I have had the exact opposite. Before everything was very abstract. I remember as a kid, wondering who knew how to swim and who didn't. The DM would decide it based on our backgrounds. So suddenly we all came from oceanside towns and were the sons of wealthy scholars, so we could swim and read and have access to more money. 3e puts the kibosh on all that.

Combats where foes teleport hundreds of feet are a thing of the past ("you said he was far away!" "Well, he's in melee now"). I'm not stuck with playing the same character I started with at 1st level. And, most woderous of all, the monsters have templates and classes so even the humble orc is a possible villian of high order.

God, I love 3e!

By George I think he's got it!

BG@W has pretty well summed up my opinions on 3e but I would like to add that DM 'burnout' did indeed happen in 2e (and other editions). I know it happened to me and just about everyone I ever knew who played D&D'back in the day'. 3e did restart *a lot* of campaign around here. I have found most cases of DM burnout are usually the result of selfish players who don't appreciate what a DM has to do to get a game together and who don't take interest in the world the DM is putting together. i have noticed that it tends to be the truly talented DMs who suffer burnout.

 

[Cybern]

I disagree about the social side of D&D being sad. This game helped me getting rid of most of my shy personality. But sitting around eating snacks has got me some winter insulation I don't like

 

[cildarith]

Hey Belen, I pretty much agree with what you said.

I got burned out on 3E pretty fast and told my players I would never DM a 3E game again. Ever.

My players, however, thought 3E was the greatest thing ever (for some reason ). So I told them that if one of them would like to be the DM I would happily participate in their game.

Needless to say, there have been NO takers, and we have played other game systems since then.

 

[Henry]

QUICK HIJACK...

Belenumeria, I just noticed you live in the Raleigh, NC area. Are you planning by any chance to come to the ENWorld NC Gameday this Saturday? We'd love to see you there!

END HIJACK...

 

[buzzard]

NOTE: This is not en edition wars thread. This thread is to discuss whether 3e is harder on GMs than players.

Also, please do not think that I am discussing my personal problems with this topic. I'd rather people had a discussion rather than just say..."duh, it's the posters fault, not the edition. "

Lots of GMs seem to have these problems, so it is an obvious point of discussion. Too many people on these boards would rather land personal attacks than make a constructive argument. if you have something constructive to say, then please do. Advice is welcome.

Comments like find another system etc do not really fix anything.

Have fun and enjoy!

Dave

When most of your arguments are extremely subjective, you are going to have to accept that it may be your problem rather than a fundamental rule problem.

Let's go down your list:

1) too many rules cause arguments- very subjective and completely based on how you run the game. To impugn the system over this is specious.

2)social interaction skill rolls kill roleplay- Again a subjective issue. By codifying the social interactions into the system, you don't have the good roleplayer with the 6 charisma fighter charming everyone. This is a plus. How the players actually roleplay given encounters is dependent on the player, not whether there are rolls involved or not. If you have to prod them into roleplaying, well blaming the system is like blaming matches for arson.

3) The rules are too computer like- whatever this means is not too clear (maybe it's subjective- naah!). If you mean the rules are fairly logical and codified, well yes. Reasonable people would think this is a good thing.

4) DMs have too much to consider- This is another issue of blaming matches for starting fires. The flexibility of 3ed is a tool, not a requirement. About the only concession I will make here is that a lot of published adventures use templates, but then they also list all the relevant stats and abilities. You certainly don't have to use such stuff in your own work.

5) 3e encourages player vs. DM play- something of a restatment of the first point and equally specious. Third has changed nothing in this regard. If players have an adversarial relation with the DM, the rules will have no bearing as to how this will work.

Since most of your arguments are based on:
A) I don't understand the rules very well because there are too many
B) There are too many options
C) Rules are to codified

which are fundamental issues with you and your feel for the system, a suggestion to switch to a different system is appropriate. The only valid suggestion on how to fix things is you decide on which rules you like and which you don't and adjust the game accordingly. Anything else won't do since the objections are all subjective in any case.

The argument that there are too many rules, is IMHO, bunk. You need to know one book well (PHB) one book in parts (monster abilities in MM), and some select parts of the DMG depending on what you are doing. The mechanic is consistent, and can be adapted to deal with many situations on the fly (pick a close skill and set a DC). If you are running into too many rules, you are using too many sources. Control your game before you blame the system.

buzzard