Is 3rd edition too "quantitative"

Oh the irony.

Has anyone but me noticed that meta-discussions about whether the rules are complicated or not often boil down into *actual* discussions about the rules, and those who claim the rules are not complicated, often have to stop and help clarify complicated rules to those who are arguing that they are complicated?
 

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die_kluge said:
I think what he's driving at there, is that there doesn't seem to be a reason for them to have different kinds of bonuses, for two spells which are fundamentally the same. Why couldn't they have just said "these two spells stack".

They did. You just didn't read it right.

The multiple bonus types idea is frakin' genius.

Why? Because otherwise you've got the same situation you just described multiplied by each of the 4,000 spells out there. Sure, Bless and Prayer stack because it says so in the spell description. But what about Bless, Prayer, and Indomitable Foe (a spell released in splatbook number 6)? Does Indomitable Foe need to list each and every spell designed before it and whether or not it stacks with them?

Under your system, it does.

Under the 3E system, all they have to say is that Indomitable Foe provides a Morale bonus, and you instantly know that it stacks with Prayer but not with Bless.

It is cleaner and simpler than any other system you can devise - other than "Everything stacks with everything."
 

D&D in general is a very quanitative system. It always has been. Spells have specific and predictable effects, durations, ranges. This quantitative approach is even more present in 3e+ with the additions of skills and feats. Predictability is high and now has become expected.

I don't think that it's become too quantitative however. Character builds can be a nuisance depending on the player, but they can also be an effective role-playing tool in a good player's hands. Combat's are only wacko confusing if you get too many participants or when players or the DM don't understand their characters and how their capabilities are applied. For groups of 4 PCs and a similar amount of NPCs run by the DM, it's fairly easy to sort them out.

I also think that too many quantitative rules is better than not enough. Actions that have no rule lead to more (and more protracted) arguments than actions that are described and only need to be looked up to be verified.
 

PaulGreystoke said:
As opposed to 1e or 2e, where you basically chose the entire progression of your character at character generation when you selected your class (or multi-class)?

Touche!

Although I still think it is a failing of the 3e system that it doesn't introduce these options in a way which is more flexible - e.g. if the default for prestige classes had been task-based entry rather than skills + feats + class abilities for entry (e.g. as Unearthed Arcana gives some optional rules for)

Water under the bridge now in terms of design of course.
 

This argument over how quantiative a game should be goes back a long, long time. Wargames have been around, in some form or another, for quite some time, and RPGs, as we know, derive from wargames. Most modern wargames derive from the Kriegspiel (literally wargame) of 19th-century Prussia:
The nineteenth-century Prussian game started life with a rigid structure and copious formal rules. The two sides were each placed in a separate room with a model of the terrain or a map. The umpires moved from one room to another collecting orders from the players, and then retired to a third room to consult the rules and find the results of combat. A great deal of their time was consumed in leafing through voluminous sets of rules, consulting tables and giving rulings on fine legal points. By about 1870, however, this rigid system was starting to be thought rather clumsy and time-consuming. Quite apart from the many defects and loopholes in the rules themselves, it reduced the umpires, who were often very senior officers, to the role of mere clerks and office boys. clearly, such a state of affairs was intolerable.​
Most "modern" games popular in the 1980s (e.g., Squad Leader, Third Reich) followed the "voluminous sets of rules" model, but the Prussians moved away from it 100 years earlier:
It was General von verdy du Vernois who finally broke with this system, and abolished the rule book altogether. His approach to the wargame was the free kriegspiel, in which the umpire had a totally free hand to decide the result of moves and combats. He did not do this according to any set of written rules, but just on his own military knowledge and experience. He would collect the players' moves in exactly the same way as before; but he would then simply give a considered professional opinion on the outcome. This speeded up the game a very great deal, and ensured that there was always a well thought-out reason for everything that happened. This was a great help in the debrief after the game, and it allowed players to learn by their mistakes very quickly.​
A modern "free kriegspiel" often combines umpiring with a randomizer (e.g., a ten-sided die, or "nugget"):
The system for finding the results of combat in a free kriegspiel is classically simple. First of all the umpire looks at the position of each side: how many and what type of troops are involved; how their morale is bearing up; and what orders they have been given. He next considers the ground on which the action will be fought, and any special tactical problems which either side might encounter; whether there are any obstacles in the way of an attacker; whether a flank attack might be possible, and so on.

When the umpire has all relevant information at his disposal, he ought to be able to give an informed opinion on the probabilities of the result. He will not simply say something like 'The French infantry hassuccessfully stormed the hill', but will quote possibilities, such as: 'The French have a 50% chance of storming the hill successfully; a 30% chance of capturing half of it, while disputing the rest; and a 20% chance of being totally repulsed. High scores favour the French'. It is important that the umpire is as specific as possible with these figures, as this forces him to consider all the factors involved in the combat and to think through the full implications of his decision. He must also be clear whether a high dice roll will be good or bad for the attacker, i.e., whether the top 50% (a die roll of 5-9) or the bottom 50% (a roll of 0-4) will mean the hill has been carried. In this case he has stated that the high score will be good for the attacker.​
 

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
The multiple bonus types idea is frakin' genius.

Why? Because otherwise you've got the same situation you just described multiplied by each of the 4,000 spells out there.

Indeed. This convention is one of the most important changes that makes 3.x more manageable and less munckin-fodder than prior editions.
 

Psion said:
Indeed. This convention is one of the most important changes that makes 3.x more manageable and less munckin-fodder than prior editions.

Agreed. I do think that there are some extraneous bonus types, however. (e.g. Profane...)

Cheers!
 

Psion said:
Indeed. This convention is one of the most important changes that makes 3.x more manageable and less munckin-fodder than prior editions.

Although the downside of it is that it does mean a lot more bookkeeping that might otherwise be the case; I often find myself wishing that they had limited bonuses to just a couple (natural and magical, something like that), it would eliminate the stack-a-rama which is such a factor in high level D&D IMX, and I think that would be a good thing.

Cheers
 

Plane Sailing said:
Although the downside of it is that it does mean a lot more bookkeeping that might otherwise be the case;

:confused:

Not sure how you figure that.

Compare named bonuses to the prior condition. Each spell or effect had to be considered individually. If there weren't stacking restrictions written into the spell or effect, there were no restrictions at all. So it meant tracking each spell or effect. And all it took to exploit a loophole was for the would be munchkin to find a spell that didn't consider all possible combinations. Named bonuses make it so less specific thoughts have to be given to stacking in the spell description itself, and you don't have to have an encylopedic knowledge of what goes on in those spells to do it right.
 

Psion said:
:confused:

Not sure how you figure that.

Compare named bonuses to the prior condition. Each spell or effect had to be considered individually. If there weren't stacking restrictions written into the spell or effect, there were no restrictions at all. So it meant tracking each spell or effect.

But in the multi-dispel situation that was much easier! You just crossed off and removed all the dispelled things and totted stuff up again. But if the party was inspired with courage (+2 morale bonus), blessed (+1 morale bonus), prayer'd (+1 luck bonus), fancy magic item (+1 luck bonus) Protection from Evil (+2 resistance, +2 deflection) then they are hit by area dispel magic and some lose their bless, some lose their prayer, some lose both, then the bard is hit and has to stop his inspire courage (but one of them still has a heroism spell affecting him).

More bookkeeping, because you have to keep track of overlapping effects which can change on different party members at different rates or in different ways.

Everything stacks is much simpler. Nothing stacks would also be simpler. The current set-up of stacking and overlapping requires more bookkeeping.

Cheers

p.s. I don't disagree with you that it cuts down on abuse - but my point isn't about static abuse when creating characters, but as I hope my trivial example above shows is the managing of effects during a melee.
 
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