Is 4e Heroic?

[Particle_Man]

I think the problem with hit points seeming too high is that there is nothing in between a standard monster that takes about four hits to kill and a minion (equal to four standard monsters) that dies on one hit.

What about minions with both temporary hit points and some resistances to some or all damage types?

 

[GnomeWorks]

The question might be: How often do "real heroes" fight other heroes? How often should long, drawn-out fights happen, and how often heroes should run through wades of opponents? What is the mixture that feels right to you or your group?

My games are not cinematic.

Minion rules are crap, IMO. They're an interesting idea, but I do not like the mechanical execution of the idea.

This - among myriad other reasons - is why I am not going to 4e.

 

[aurance]

As a side note, as far as I can tell, the example in point #3 is wrong, is it not?

Goblin warrior has 29 hit points. Meteor swarm, 8d6+Int. I'd guess, 4.5x6 + 6 (Int) + 6 (Implement) = 39. Would miss only on a 1, for 1/2 dmg.

Still, I can see the intent of the point, and damage does scale a bit slowly with level for my taste. But I'll have to see how it plays out at higher levels. Lower levels, it seems just fine.

 

[neceros]

I believe minions do what they do well. I love using minions in the right circumstance, but it doesn't fix the problems mentioned earlier.

We should be able to take encounters from the MM without having to substitute minions for all the 'normal' monsters.

 

[hong]

I believe minions do what they do well. I love using minions in the right circumstance, but it doesn't fix the problems mentioned earlier.

We should be able to take encounters from the MM without having to substitute minions for all the 'normal' monsters.

The encounters for the MM are balanced meaning they provide a reasonable challenge for the given level. They cannot predict what every player wants in terms of taste: some want piles of bodies; others want tight, tactical combats. You're going to have to do some customising of encounters.

 

[FireLance]

What about minions with both temporary hit points and some resistances to some or all damage types?

"Minions with temporary more hit points" pretty much covers Adjunct monsters. There is very little difference between temporary hit points and more hit points, IMO. If either the minions or the PCs don't survive the encounter, it doesn't matter whether the hit points are temporary or permanent. Between more hit points and damage resistance, I think it would be better to use damage resistance if you want to use the monster as standard minions. As a DM, you won't need to keep track of hit points. You just need to note whether the resistance negates all the damage or not.

Needing to track hit points adds a bit more complexity to running minions, and needing the PCs to blow through an additional layer of defences such as hit points or resistances makes them tougher. To account for this, adjunct monsters are worth two minions in terms of XP so the DM needs to run (and the PCs need to defeat) fewer of them than if minions are used.

 

[Asmor]

Goblin warrior has 29 hit points. Meteor swarm, 8d6+Int. I'd guess, 4.5x6 + 6 (Int) + 6 (Implement) = 39. Would miss only on a 1, for 1/2 dmg.

Average of a d6 is 3.5, not 4.5, so subtract 8 from your number. Still, average of 31 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

It's important, I think, to remember that the power curve has been dramatically changed. Before, a level 2 character was about twice as powerful as a level 1 character, and a level 20 character about 20 times as powerful. Now a level 2 character is maybe 120% as powerful as a level 1, and a level 20 might only be 4-5 times as powerful.

disclaimer: Total guess, number pulled from nether-regions, no idea how well that works out in practice.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I believe minions do what they do well. I love using minions in the right circumstance, but it doesn't fix the problems mentioned earlier.

We should be able to take encounters from the MM without having to substitute minions for all the 'normal' monsters.

If you want to use the normal monsters, but basically with less hit points you run into the problem of not getting to use their nifty powers and making it difficult for the players to "feel" the monsters. Maybe that is not a problem.

4E did not just change how hit points accrue or how many rounds combat do. They also gave monsters (and PCs) more interesting power that require time to shine through. Maybe that's the solution.

A fight against a Hill Giant in 3E could last 2 rounds or 5 rounds or 10 rounds - the tactics wouldn't change much. A fight in 4E would include a lot more maneuvering, using encounter powers. As such, the fight feels more heroic because more different things happen.

Of course, I am painting with a broad brush here. 3E also had monsters that had more then one good trick (they were harder to run, though), and 4E also has simple monsters with very few options (incidentally, the Hill Giant might exactly be it ).

 

[WhatGravitas]

Minion rules are crap, IMO. They're an interesting idea, but I do not like the mechanical execution of the idea.

By the way, have you tried them or seen them in play?

Because in my limited 4E experience (we're still on 3rd level), they are surprisingly dangerous. If you're reading the rules, they *look* like being cannon fodder.

But in play, you simply don't ignore them. They are actually pretty hard to hit (on par with other monsters) and feel like a threat. Since they aren't that easy to hit, you usually need to attack a minion at least twice to hit it for good.

Since you're easily attacking them several times, they feel like real monsters, not like one-hit scenery, at least in my experience. Heck, in the last encounter, the minions went down last, because we had such a crappy luck with our attack rolls against them - and their damage isn't piddly, especially if two of them are flanking you, hitting you reliably.

Unless your DM really calls them "mooks" or "minions", it's hard to tell the difference, at least threat assessment-wise.

It's again one of these 4E things: Looks bad, plays good. This starts to startle me more every time I encounter this.

Cheers, LT.

 

[GnomeWorks]

By the way, have you tried them or seen them in play?

Yes.