D&D 4E Is 4E retro?

[Brother MacLaren]

So, you like the direction 4E is heading with this, then? 4E appears to be doing away with #3 and possibly even #1 as well. (The main limiting factor on PC gear is now bonus level rather than wealth--i.e., a 5th-level charater should have +1 gear.)

PCs not able to buy the specific magic items that they want? I'll believe it when the game has been out a couple of years and that restriction is still in place. The fact is, WotC can make so much money selling stuff like the Magic Item Compendium that it makes more financial sense to place the decision of "what items does my PC have" in the players' hands rather than the DMs' hands.

 

[TerraDave]

Magic item dependence is supposed to be lower, so wealth by level will also be less important.

BUT, not being able to buy items at all (as the default)...I think we will have to see.

 

[Lacyon]

So, you like the direction 4E is heading with this, then? 4E appears to be doing away with #3 and possibly even #1 as well. (The main limiting factor on PC gear is now bonus level rather than wealth--i.e., a 5th-level charater should have +1 gear.)

From the Tiers excerpt (on creating higher-than-1st-level characters):

7. Choose Equipment and Magic Items. Mundane equipment is much less important for higher level characters than it is when you’re starting out. Choose whatever standard adventuring gear you want from the tables in the Player’s Handbook. For magic items, choose one item of your level +1, one item of your level, and one item of your level –1. In addition, you have gold pieces equal to the value of one magic item of your level –1. You can spend this money on rituals, potions, or other magic items, or save it for later.

That seems to indicate that both Wealth-by-Level is in and PCs can buy the items they want.

However, the game only seems to expect you to have three items (presumably attack, AC, Fort/Ref/Will items would be the default 3).

That seems pretty good to me.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I suppose my problem is the convergence of these three things:
1) Expected wealth by level
2) Magic items having a GP value
3) PCs expected to be able to buy the magic items they want.
I have never liked buying magic items in any edition of the game. I don't even like picking out magic items when I make a mid-to-high level PC. I love finding them in-game, and that's something that 3E discouraged. No more making do with what the DM gives you -- you are expected to be able to sell it and cash it in for an item optimized for you. That shift was one of 3E's biggest failings compared to BECMI.

The strange thing is, the "magic item market" is more an emergent property from 3E, rather then a rule. The reason for this is probably just because items are given a "market price", and there is even an exchange rate. There's also the gp value based on settlement size, but there is no explicit mention of being able to buy these on a bazar or something like that. Theoretically, DMs could have required small quests for local wizards to get you items, and they wouldn't even have to give you exactly the item you desired.

In a way, "everyone" took the simplest ruled and said "sell for half market price, buy for full, if town is large enough". The wealth rules also lead to people never getting "suboptimal" items, and when was the last time the DM handed you an artifact? No GP price? No one knows what it will do to balance, better never use it!

I hope that the 4E rules make people a little more flexible. I think there is room for a magical item market on a general basis, but not for every setting and world, and not for every item...

 

[Harshax]

I have to say Magic Item economy was one of the things I hated most as a 3.X DM. I spent way too much time evaluating my player's wealth level and trying to figure out what they needed to get back up to par. As characters got higher level, you couldn't refill a characters wealth expectation with a local alchemist shop (potions, and scrolls)

Given the choice, I'd rather go back to the 1E approach: mostly random

On the flip side, in 3E, it was nice to arm a character without making a meta-game decision on the likelihood of random treasure giving me an uber-cool weapon.

eg. 70% of all magic swords are Long Swords.
(Did I quote that right, haven't looked in my DMG in like 10 years.)

Since 3E distanced itself from giving all the magic love to swords and presented lots of cool options for other types of magic weapons, it's likely that we'll have that in 4E too. So no matter what the 4E expectations on player's magical wealth, I'm going back to the best way to handle treasure: random, with thoughtful editing.

I'm more retro than 4E.

 

[hong]

I suppose my problem is the convergence of these three things:
1) Expected wealth by level
2) Magic items having a GP value
3) PCs expected to be able to buy the magic items they want.
I have never liked buying magic items in any edition of the game. I don't even like picking out magic items when I make a mid-to-high level PC. I love finding them in-game, and that's something that 3E discouraged. No more making do with what the DM gives you -- you are expected to be able to sell it and cash it in for an item optimized for you. That shift was one of 3E's biggest failings compared to BECMI.

Expecting a certain wealth by level in terms of ships, strongholds, hirelings, and so on, all that is fine with me. The fighter PCs are becoming Lords, after all. But I don't think reducing magic items to a GP value and assigning an expected amount per level has worked particularly well, and I do not like the way it feels in-game.

So don't do it that way.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I suppose my problem is the convergence of these three things:

You're in luck them!

1) Expected wealth by level - Gone. There is only an expected "+" by level, and if you build that + into character level advancement, then not even that.

2) Magic items having a GP value - Gone. Now they've got a "level" equal to the level of PC the item is not unbalancing for.

3) PCs expected to be able to buy the magic items they want. - Gone. This is one of the oldest bits of news we have, back from the very beginning.

I have never liked buying magic items in any edition of the game. I don't even like picking out magic items when I make a mid-to-high level PC. I love finding them in-game, and that's something that 3E discouraged. No more making do with what the DM gives you -- you are expected to be able to sell it and cash it in for an item optimized for you. That shift was one of 3E's biggest failings compared to BECMI.

Expecting a certain wealth by level in terms of ships, strongholds, hirelings, and so on, all that is fine with me. The fighter PCs are becoming Lords, after all. But I don't think reducing magic items to a GP value and assigning an expected amount per level has worked particularly well, and I do not like the way it feels in-game.

You and I are on the same page. I think 4E will work out quite well in this respect.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

2) Magic items having a GP value - Gone. Now they've got a "level" equal to the level of PC the item is not unbalancing for.

To be fair, even the article online said magic items still have a gp value. It said all magic items of a certain level would all have the SAME gp value, but they still have one. This is also confirmed by the above text that says you can use the extra money you have to purchase magic items.

3) PCs expected to be able to buy the magic items they want.- Gone. This is one of the oldest bits of news we have, back from the very beginning.

I think the quote above about buying magic items with your leftover money as part of the character creation process disagrees.

I'm certain that ignoring the gp values and telling your players "You can't buy magic items" is really, really easy. But I'd say the default expectation is that players can buy what they can afford(or at least acquire them some way).

 

[Simon Marks]

I think the quote above about buying magic items with your leftover money as part of the character creation process disagrees.

I'd say that purchasing equipment during character creation is significantly different to purchasing equipment in the game.

But then again, I'm not a playtester.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Its really more a “feeling” then anything else, but is 4E, at least in some ways, going back to pre 3E (or 2E) versions of D&D?

While a feeling, I will try to make some arguments for it:

-PCs playing one class their whole career, with multi-classing a more exotic alternative
-Tying races and classes more closely together (or, having better mechanics to do that)
-Choice of spell-like powers a main way to customize characters

-Simpler monsters
-Simpler and more robust approach to encounters, treasure, and XP

-Less emphasis on corner cases and suboptimal choices
-(some to many) simpler rules
-More room for DM adjudication

-More of a “B/E D&D” tone to the flavour text
-More of a “B/E D&D” approach class branching and immortal ascension
(though AD&D also had “ascension” rules)

Of course, I can come up with counter arguments. There are specific changes from “canon”, and more generally 4E retains (or actually strengthens) 3Es core mechanic and emphasis on (mechanical) options for players and DMs.

But still, it gives me this feeling.

I don't really get that feeling...

Not sure what you mean about tying races and classes closer together, but... There are no races that are classes for one (no Elf or Dwarf class like in Basic)
Saving Throws are totally different (no STs for Wands/Staff/Rods or Death Magic)
D&D has always used vancian magic AFAIK so there were never spell-like powers, especially w/ melee types, to customize your character with.
4E is really pushing grids/battlemats by changing their measurements into squares. In Basic or Advanced I never even used mini's. Now you are almost forced to, at the very least, encouraged to.

I see too many differences than similarities...