D&D 4E Is 4E retro?

[Stalker0]

I definitely think 4e has taken a step back...in a good way.

Basically, in 3e, the designers pushed mechanics in some new and crazy directions. They were great ideas, very forward thinking. But after trying some of them we all experienced some of the downsides. The designers realized that some of those new ideas had more drawbacks then benefits. In 4e, they attempt to keep the parts of 3e that worked, and then revert some ideas to earlier concepts.

 

[Wightbred]

I never got this when I moved to 1E, 2E or 3E, but I definitely get a BE vibe from 4E. Hard for me to quantify why, but it feels like the sort of game you can grab some dice and get playing.

I really hope the starter (later this year?) is in a red box - that would be coo... awesome. Probably not with those colour-in dice though: that would be going a little too far.

 

[pawsplay]

Its really more a “feeling” then anything else, but is 4E, at least in some ways, going back to pre 3E (or 2E) versions of D&D?

Not to me. I have fond memories of Basic D&D, memories I am even now fortifying against any contamination from 4e. AD&D was very much about "the world," not powers. As for B/E D&D ... what I can think of that most contrasts from 4e is the moderation. There were smaller numbers, fewer modifiers, clearer choices, less exception cases. Monster simplicity harkens back to BECMI D&D, but that's about it. Something else about Basic D&D is that supernatural powers definitely belonged to monsters; clerics and wizards used special methods to get spells. There was nothing like a reserve feat, or a shadowdancer class, or even psionics.

Although 4e looks like a good design in many ways, probably the biggest reservation I have is that it is really, truly, at least 40% less D&D to me than 3e was. I've been contemplating buying the PDFs of older editions for a while now, to mine for nostalgia and design inspiration. One of the big motivating factors to me was seeing what 4e was bringing. What I consider D&D is fading away, and if 4e is successful enough, is likely to be pretty much gone under that brand forever.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Compared to BECMI, where the "Normal Man" was 0 level, had worse saves than a fighter1, a Thac0 of 20, 1d4 hp, AC 10, no ability scores to speak of, and attacked with a random garden tool that dealt 1d6 damage.

Its been a long time since I played, but I'm sure my first level fighter did a lot better than that.

His ability scores were 3-18, same as PCs. The strongest Normal Man was as strong as the strongest PC hero. His damage was "by weapon," same as a PC did. His AC was normally 9, although Mentzer notes that monsters' AC might change by armor worn (seems obvious, I know). His HP were 1-4 in Moldvay, boosted to 1-8 in Mentzer (and in either case it was suggested to assign by hardiness and not roll). Your 1st-level fighter did have to roll, so even in Moldvay he had only a 50% chance of having more HP than the blacksmith.

True, Normal Man's hit rolls and saves were slightly worse than those of the PCs. But, he would instantly convert to a PC class if he gained XP through an adventure. This, along with the ability scores, suggested that he was not fundamentally any different than a PC except through his career choice. And that, to me, is a really important point. The vibe I get from reading material about 4E is that the PCs are just plain better because they're the PCs. This was true in 3E as well, and it was one of my least favorite things about the system.

3E gave PCs 3 mechanical advantages: better class abilities (as they had in BECMI), plus better ability scores AND maximum HP on the first die (neither of which they had in BECMI). In some campaigns, they'd have action points or other plot-protection devices. I know it's cinematic, but even in movies and TV there are levels of overt plot protection that I dislike. My tolerance for that trope in movies is less, I think, than that of many of my friends, so take that for what it's worth.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

So, yeah, I don't see a huge gape between PCs and other people.

How many HP is a normal human in the world supposed to have? Not a guard designed to be a combat encounter, but a normal human chosen at random?
If the PCs unexpectedly try to rally the villagers into forming a militia, are the villagers all 1-HP minions?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

No, I don't see 4E as retro, at all. It might be simpler than 3E (which I think is an improvement), but it still has the hallmarks of modern/in-vogue RPG design (e.g. lots of mechanical options, comprehensive rules system that crunches numbers to resolve almost any in-game challenge/situation, et cetera).

Mike Mearls compared and contrasted the OD&D approach to the 4E approach in some message board postings (I quote him in my player skill vs. PC skill musing); he characterized OD&D and 4E as being very different games that cater to different needs. That's how I tend to see 4E (and even 3E, for that matter): related, but different games from the older editions, with different philosophies for handling play.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying one approach or another is objectively better or worse (although I definitely have an opinion on what works best for me). I think it's a matter of preference. And I'll add that things like "feel" tend to be very subjective.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Regarding normal/average men in OD&D[1974] (three brown books):

• In general, they have 1d6 hp. Contrast with a Veteran (1st level) Fighting Man, who has 1d6+1 hp.
• All normal weapons do 1d6 damage.
• Stats are 3-18, like PCs, but stats don't affect combat, much (no bonuses from Str, Con gave you +1/HD at best, Dex didn't affect AC)
• They have the same attack values as 1st level Fighting Men

In OD&D, The big difference between a normal man and a Veteran Fighting Man isn't the slight bonus to the Veteran's hit die, but rather the Veteran's status as a greater than 1HD combatant. This is significant because it prevented high HD enemies from engaging in non-fantastic melee against him, which would give them a number of attacks equal to their hit dice. (Fantastic vs. non-fantastic melee is a concept from Chainmail that carried over into OD&D, and even into AD&D in a modified form.)

For example, if an evil hero (4HD) attacked a group of merchants (all normal men with 1HD), the villain would get 4 attacks each round. However, throw a veteran guard (1+1HD) into the mix, and now the evil hero can only attack once. Similarly, if a PC Hero (4th level) is fighting a group of goblins, he would get four attacks each round, but if the goblins were led by a hobgoblin (1+1HD), the PC hero would only get a single attack.

 

[Simon Marks]

How many HP is a normal human in the world supposed to have? Not a guard designed to be a combat encounter, but a normal human chosen at random?
If the PCs unexpectedly try to rally the villagers into forming a militia, are the villagers all 1-HP minions?

We don't know, unfortunately.

If 'normal men' end up being 1-hp minions then you have a point - but they may not.

So, it may be a valid point but I doubt we'll know for a month. "The stats of an average NPC Elf" are unlikely to be an exciting excerpt.

 

[Jack Colby]

All I really feel in this regard is that 4e is going back to some core concepts of D&D. The 3e designers moved away from certain elements that they, for whatever reason, thought were bad or outdated concepts. 4e designers seem to be recognizing that the original concepts actually worked, and were designed that way for a reason, so they are reinstating them (and acting like these are new ideas... funny, that.)

A lot of what 4e is doing mirrors the concepts I've been reading about for many years on various "grognard" pre-3e discussion boards, and are traditional parts of the D&D experience. Nice to see WotC has finally come to their senses after their little 3e experiment.

 

[TerraDave]

While its true that 1st level 4E charecters are know more like 3rd level charecters from past editions, there are some attempts at deflation in 4E. Damage has been moderated, especially at higher levels. Various bonuses, ie to AC (and "defenses"), to hit, from magic, also seem to be tempered. More generally, the power curve is definately flatter. Its not back to 1E or BECMI, but much of the "inflation" from 3E (and even 2E), at least at mid to high levels, seems to have been reversed.
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