D&D 5E Is a dwarf wizard still "playing against type"?

[Kobold Stew]

Oh, it is still against type. There are some people who play dwarf wizards, or who have just forgotten about this aspect of the dwarf culture, but it's an option many DM's will actually disallow.

Do you have any evidence for the claim in bold, or are you speaking just for yourself and your own gaming experience? I have seen no indications that any DM has in fact disallowed this, but I'd be interested in seeing anything you could point me to on any disallowed race/class combinations, including this one.

"Some" or "a few" DMs? Maybe. "Many"? I am dubious.

 

[SkidAce]

I agree it is probably not very many...but since [MENTION=23484]Kobold Stew[/MENTION] requested an example....here is a paragraph from my campaign bible.

Dwarven Wizards

They say there used to be dwarven wizards back in the ages past.
Something bad happened, and now there aren’t any. And considering the subject is taboo to dwarves of the current age (who may not even know why), if a dwarven wizard was to exist, they would probably be shunned and persecuted.

 

[MostlyDm]

Its against type in the untrained in armor carrying around a dusty old tome os spells type archtype.

But a mail clad warrior calling upon the runes carved into his axe, armor, and knuckle bones.... Never!

So, 5e is perfect for this in many ways.

Yeah, it's a very neat idea.

Instead of a spellbook, he has a bag of runestones inscribed with spells, and each day he attunes to a few of them.

 

[Reynard]

I think one reason it still feels like playing against type to many people is because it's not just about D&D. In D&D style heroic fantasy in general (LotR, of course, but also recent stuff for the newer generations like Dragon Age) dwarves are often not wizards, or even capable of being such. It's a longstanding tradition in many popular franchises.

Interestingly, the dwarves were just as "magical" as the other races in the Lord of the Rings books. That is, either very, or not magical at all. Dwarven craftsmanship with stone was so great that elves had them build their cities. There is an interesting passage in Fellowship where Sam asks one of the elves of Lothlorien if the rope was magical and the elf was simply amused, not quite understanding the question. At another time, at the gates of Moria, Gandalf says that he has tried spells of men, elves and dwarves to open the doors and none work, which goes a long way in saying Middle Earth has spellcasters and among them are dwarves. So the proscription against elven wizards is not taken from Tolkien. Given that norse dwarves were masters of magic themselves, it isn't taken from myths, either. One wonders about its actual origins, other than perhaps as a "balancing mechanic."

 

[MostlyDm]

Interestingly, the dwarves were just as "magical" as the other races in the Lord of the Rings books. That is, either very, or not magical at all. Dwarven craftsmanship with stone was so great that elves had them build their cities. There is an interesting passage in Fellowship where Sam asks one of the elves of Lothlorien if the rope was magical and the elf was simply amused, not quite understanding the question. At another time, at the gates of Moria, Gandalf says that he has tried spells of men, elves and dwarves to open the doors and none work, which goes a long way in saying Middle Earth has spellcasters and among them are dwarves. So the proscription against elven wizards is not taken from Tolkien. Given that norse dwarves were masters of magic themselves, it isn't taken from myths, either. One wonders about its actual origins, other than perhaps as a "balancing mechanic."

Good point!

I mean, the only true "Wizards" in LotR are basically the Istari, right? And they're neither men nor elves nor dwarves. It's been a long time, though, so I could be mistaken. But good point about Dwarven magic, such as it is.

Norse dwarves, like dwarves in much of myth, are essentially just a particular type of faerie. So, yes, innately magical. Not exactly much in common with D&D wizards, though.

 

[steeldragons]

I think it the reasoning in Basic/BECM was two-fold.

1. simulation of LOTR. The above quote from Fellowship aside. Dwarves are skilled craftsmen and hearty warriors : leading to the Dwarves=Gimli trope.

and 2. A balancing check against the "Elves are magic-users/have spells." So we made Dwarves, not only not magic-users, but highly resistant to magic...by way of saying why, in their multitude of battles and wars with Elfkind, they weren't just steamrollered with spells.

So then AD&D-and on just continued to carry this forward. Til the "everybody can do everything is core" of 3e.

...and yes, it's still a thing. As long as D&D is originated by Gary GYgax and based heavily off of LotR, Dwarf Wizard will be "against type." You whipper-snappers have another 30-40-some years 'fore those of us who started on Basic or 1e are all dead. So after that, you can make/claim the tropes whatever you want them to be. hahaha

To lend my hat to [EDIT Oops: it was [MENTION=6731904]SirAntoine[/MENTION] . Sorry @Kobold Stew /EDIT], I have certainly banned them outright for many many years. Nowadays, I'm getting soft in my middling years, and if someone came to me and wanted to be a wizard dwarf, I'd allow it and they would understand they are/will be an oddity and not well-received/-viewed in dwarven or wizarding circles.

 

[SirAntoine]

Do you have any evidence for the claim in bold, or are you speaking just for yourself and your own gaming experience? I have seen no indications that any DM has in fact disallowed this, but I'd be interested in seeing anything you could point me to on any disallowed race/class combinations, including this one.

"Some" or "a few" DMs? Maybe. "Many"? I am dubious.

I am speculating. It's a matter of the DM's preference in making their campaign.

 

[Reynard]

As something of a tangent, one "traditional" fantasy setting (read: elves, dwarves, orcs, etc...) that did Dwarf Wizards right was Earthdawn. I always liked the way it removed itself from the Tolkienesque influence while managing to keep the dwarves dwarf-like and the elves elf-like. If anyone is looking for inspiration as to how to "justify" dwarven wizards (or many other "against type" portrayals of demi humans in general) they could do far worse than look at Earthdawn.

 

[Staffan]

I have no problem whatsoever with dwarven wizards. I was weaned on the Swedish BRP-derived RPG Drakar och Demoner, and dwarves didn't have any problem being wizards there (and even had a slight advantage due to rolling 2d6+6 instead of 3d6 on one of the relevant stats).

 

[Minsc]

I think it the reasoning in Basic/BECM was two-fold.

1. simulation of LOTR. The above quote from Fellowship aside. Dwarves are skilled craftsmen and hearty warriors : leading to the Dwarves=Gimli trope.

and 2. A balancing check against the "Elves are magic-users/have spells." So we made Dwarves, not only not magic-users, but highly resistant to magic...by way of saying why, in their multitude of battles and wars with Elfkind, they weren't just steamrollered with spells.

So then AD&D-and on just continued to carry this forward. Til the "everybody can do everything is core" of 3e.

...and yes, it's still a thing. As long as D&D is originated by Gary GYgax and based heavily off of LotR, Dwarf Wizard will be "against type." You whipper-snappers have another 30-40-some years 'fore those of us who started on Basic or 1e are all dead. So after that, you can make/claim the tropes whatever you want them to be. hahaha

To lend my hat to [EDIT Oops: it was [MENTION=6731904]SirAntoine[/MENTION] . Sorry @Kobold Stew /EDIT], I have certainly banned them outright for many many years. Nowadays, I'm getting soft in my middling years, and if someone came to me and wanted to be a wizard dwarf, I'd allow it and they would understand they are/will be an oddity and not well-received/-viewed in dwarven or wizarding circles.

I wasn't asking why dwarf wizards are/were considered against type, I was asking, after 15 years of being a viable class, if we've moved on.

I started playing when Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling were classes too.