Is a popular non-D&D traditional fantasy RPG possible?

[Steely Dan]

???? That is a major projection, Mr. Dan. I'd advise against taking offense or seeing insult when none was intended...or at least find out first before insulting someone by accusing them of passive aggression!

Okay, I'm sorry, I guess I overreacted, but with the shrouded 4th Ed bashing going around, your original post really did come off that way a bit.

It's just so hard to tell in these dire times!

 

[Mercurius]

As far as I know, the profits were there. It's just that Games Workshop calculated that they could make more money for the same amount of effort by publishing more models.

Consider this: If Wizards of the Coast only had a limited pool of editors and quality control people for both their Dungeons & Dragons books and their Collectible Card Games, which one do you think they would ditch first?

Well this is the problem, and why we need a happy billionaire to take over the gaming industry who doesn't mind taking a financial hit to publish good games .

But seriously, RPGs--except for maybe WotC and White Wolf--are really a low-profit labor of love. The great thing about this industry is that the designers and publishers are also fans, at least 99% of the time (this is also why Hasbro owning WotC is potentially problematic). So I think that if anyone hopes they can make an enormous profit off of them, they're playing the lottery. If I was a game designer I'd be ecstatic if I could put food on the table solely through game design, although my guess is that is very, very rare (how many game designers are full-time? Probably only a few dozen--and only a handful with families, and only a few outside of WotC).

So the two main, extreme options for the game designer/publisher seem to be: 1) Either make it part of a larger company that makes its profit elsewhere, or 2) Publish out of your basement when you have the time away from your Real Job, family, etc.

Now most designers and publishers shoot for something in-between, I would say--and it is a possible middle option, just not as realistic in terms of the long-term growth that is required to sustain a business. Actually, the OGL seemed to make it more of a reality for some, but only for time at least--the d20 companies that survived and thrived either cornered a niche or diversified (think Green Ronin, Goodman, etc).

The good thing is that self-publishing continues to improve, so that we have these RPG co-ops online, Lulu, etc. Of course I think PDFs are more of a transitionary technology, kind of like Hybrid cars, and that they'll work much better when you can easily and cheaply print them out as a book with covers, even from home. And it may even be that the Basement Operation will eventually be able to self-publish quality tomes for cheap, or on-demand, so that any old geek can design a game, preview it online, and print it out and ship it when someone orders it.

But the future is so in flux, so it is awfully difficult to ahead more than a year or two.

 

[Desdichado]

If I were a game designer I'd seriously consider putting together a fantasy RPG that just might carve a chunk out of D&D's market share.

Talk to Paizo. That's the tack they're taking with Pathfinder, certainly.

Given the questionable popularity of 4E--at least relative to the initial popularity of 3E--and considering that it seems geared more towards a younger/new crowd, I would think that a very well-done traditional fantasy game might be able to actually survive on its own indefinitely.

Two very questionable assumptions indeed. Still, I have no question that a well-done "traditional" fantasy game could survive assuming it can find a market in the first place.

 

[WayneLigon]

So again, what would a fantasy RPG need to do to compete, or at least thrive alongside D&D?

I dunno. I wish I did. People have tried for 30 years to break the stranglehold D&D has on the RPG market and no-one has ever come close to doing that. You've had some excellent games out there but none of them have ever approached D&D in popularity.

Just off the top of my head:
1. You'd need to be widely distributed in the mainstream book trade. This is where D&D gets most of it's money and it's exposure.
2. You'd need compelling reasons for people to switch.
3. You'd need a way to reach 'the silent gamer'. There are apparently tons and tons of people that regularly play D&D who are simply unplugged from any media about the game whatsoever. Now I personally can barely beleive this but apparently it's true. You need to find a way to reach those people and tell them about your game.

Maybe it merely reflects my preferences, but I think that an utterly simple, purely d6-based traditional fantasy game might be able to claim some market share.

You want to have a product that provides a stark contrast to the competition. T&T does this in that it is super fast to play and has very few (but flexible) rules. It still has classes, levels, elves, swords, wizards and all the usual stuff.

I think that this would probably be the way to go, or at least it's a good, good start.

One of the selling points of 4E was that it would clean up some of the complexity. I think that a basic game capable of adding in complexity would be the way to go; have a one-book rulesbook capable of being read in a couple hours, with a simple yet expandable resolution system. This way you can tailor complexity to your audience. It also leaves you room to expand and room to create More Stuff. Gamers always like More Stuff.

I think one main way to attract new gamers is to have one moderate-sized book priced to sell, to let them get their feet wet.

So far, I remain convinced that a d6 system is the way to go. I'll be looking at Song of Fire and Ice Roleplaying very hard, let me tell you.

 

[Mercurius]

Okay, I'm sorry, I guess I overreacted, but with the shrouded 4th Ed bashing going around, your original post really did come off that way a bit.

It's just so hard to tell in these dire times!

Fair enough, and no problem. I actually like 4E, btw--or at least good chunks of it (some of the art and fluff irritates me, but that has always been the case, and I'm not too keen on the reliance on battle maps and miniatures, but I can live with that; anyways...).

My original post, any post really, was not a veiled attack on 4E. Rather, it was an inquiry into the viability of a non-D&D "relatively traditional" fantasy RPG, especially in the light of the--as you yourself point out--the amount of "4E bashing going around."

So one of my open-ended questions is whether there is the potential for another fantasy game to jump in now with something that will appeal to those that are a bit disenchanted with 4E. I mentioned Pathfinder as a possible attempt at this. Then the thread kind of focused on whether a "traditional" or more specific or exotic game would have a better chance of thriving; it was, and is, my contention that it would have to be able to accomodate both extremes.

 

[Desdichado]

My original post, any post really, was not a veiled attack on 4E. Rather, it was an inquiry into the viability of a non-D&D "relatively traditional" fantasy RPG, especially in the light of the--as you yourself point out--the amount of "4E bashing going around."

I'd agree that the attack in the first post wasn't veiled... I wouldn't agree that it wasn't clearly there, though.

When, if you'll allow me to paraphrase, you say, "given that 4e sucks so much, do you think that now's a good time to create a new traditional fantasy game that could take the wind out of its sails?" I'd hardly call that a simple inquiry.

 

[apoptosis]

White Wolf has possession of the biggest crumb

That being said, when Vampire the Masquerade first hit the market I believe it expanded the RPG market. It wasn't aimed at the average DnD player, it was Goth and Anne Rice and oh so dark. It found itself a new market.

For a new game to come anywhere near the success of DnD, or even the World of Darkness it would need to carve itself a new niche. It will need to find itself new gamers, not just steal or borrow from the DnD/D20 side of the hobby.

I believe this is absolutely correct. I think a traditional fantasy RPG is pretty much dead in the water to take any significant share away from D&D.

You would have to appeal to a new group of potential players and not take existing ones. Frankly there are so many fantasy RPGs out there, if they havent taken a chunk of the market, then that avenue is probably not going to work.

A simple question, what could you really do with a trad fantasy RPG that would make it different enough to WOW people but not so different that it is not still traditional. These are almost competing claims.

I think you would have to appeal to some group that doesnt play but is would be open to playing (and I think WW took that crowd in the 90s). And then you would have to make it pretty nontraditional (if it was really traditional then these people would probably already be playing one of the traditional games).

 

[MichaelSomething]

It's foolish to think that you can make an RPG systems that will rival D&D. Even if your system is strictly better then 4th Edition, it won't sell very well compared to it. The reason is brand name. Many people buy D&D simply because it's D&D. Because it's the game they played for decades.

However, it is possible to make to make an RPG system that can survive and thrive. Pathfinder can do it. They built a fanbase before hand with the magazines.

 

[The Little Raven]

Given the questionable popularity of 4E--at least relative to the initial popularity of 3E--and considering that it seems geared more towards a younger/new crowd, I would think that a very well-done traditional fantasy game

As sales are the only objective metric we can use for "popularity," the fact that 4e sold out it's (larger) print run faster than both 3.0 and 3.5, I'd say it's initial popularity is higher than 3.X.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If I were a game designer I'd seriously consider putting together a fantasy RPG that just might carve a chunk out of D&D's market share. Given the questionable popularity of 4E--at least relative to the initial popularity of 3E--and considering that it seems geared more towards a younger/new crowd, I would think that a very well-done traditional fantasy game might be able to actually survive on its own indefinitely.<snip>

Survive? Sure. Thrive, even.

Carve a chunk out of D&D's market share? Unlikely.

What he said.

The single biggest factor in determining success in a given market is being first to the market with a product.

D&D has that.

Then you get things like name recognition, financing, brand maintenance...

D&D has all of those as well.

Unless the company does something drastically stupid, D&D isn't the 800lb gorilla. Its the 800lb gorilla with the nuclear weapons (DAMN DIRTY APES!).

Basically, if you decide to make your own RPG for publication, you'll have to decide where your benchmark for success is, and how much failure you can accept. I say that because you might do well, but you won't do as well as you probably envision, and its entirely possible that your labor of love, regardless of quality, might be a money-loser.