Is a popular non-D&D traditional fantasy RPG possible?

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think you'll find one major flaw in your premise - avoiding the "edition-expansion-new edition-expansion" cycle. This cycle is part of the basic economics of selling to a niche market, which quickly gets saturated. The cycle is the only clear way to keep the market from saturating with your product - by changing the product.

Good call!

 

[Mercurius]

Well, Steve Jackson mentions 2007 gross sales "close to $2.88 million" -- of which Munchkin represented more than 70 percent. The bulk of the rest went to GURPS, but that's still well under $1 million for their entire RPG line.

So lets say that RPGs were 25% of their sales, which would be $720,000 (gross, which I assume means cover prices). I haven't bought a GURPS book in years, but I assume the average cover price is $25 ($20+ for softcover, $30+ for hardcover). $720,000 divided by $25 = 28,800 books sold in 2007. Does that sound about right?

Good call!

Again, just to be clear: I didn't say what Umbran thought I said, or at least I worded it incorrectly. I was trying to say that such a game SHOULD follow that cycle--I just typed too fast and didn't re-read what I wrote.

I guess I should preview my posts!

 

[RFisher]

So what do you think? Is it possible? And if so, what would it require to actually work and attain a degree of popularity that would allow it to exist indefinitely without going out of print and going through similar "edition-expansion-new edition-expansion" cycles as D&D?

Number one is business planning and market research. Figure out how much money you can expect to make off this game without the cycles. That’s going to mean a moderate amount early (the first month or three) that quickly slows to a trickle. Size your business around that trickle.

Even building the leanest business you can, that trickle may not be enough to keep printing the books and keep a light on.

Number two is marketing. You’re going to have to have a really creative and frugal marketing guy/team. They’re going to have to figure out how to get the word out about this game. Then, they’re going to have to figure out how to keep growing the player-base enough to boost that trickle enough.

This sounds like a Fantasy Heartbreaker

Fantasy Heartbreaker is exactly what you want. The bulk of innovation in this hobby happened long ago. You might chance upon an innovation, but you mainly want to leverage the experience of the past.

Heck, that’s the whole idea here, right?

Well, Steve Jackson mentions 2007 gross sales "close to $2.88 million" -- of which Munchkin represented more than 70 percent. The bulk of the rest went to GURPS, but that's still well under $1 million for their entire RPG line.

Number three: Find a cash-cow side-business that can fund your RPG habit. (^_^)

Alternative number three: If you want to avoid the cycles of expansions and new editions, you can still produce other products that aren’t expansions and new editions of this RPG.

Think of it like this: When a board game company needs a new product, they don’t typically produce an expansion or a new edition of an existing board game. (Sometimes they do, but that’s the exception rather than the rule.) Instead, they produce a new board game to sell alongside the ones they already have.

The big problem with business is that success so often ends up being just doing the boring businessy things right rather than just having passion for your products. (Not to discount the need for passion for your products, of course.)

 

[Particle_Man]

Well the OGL has meant that a *lot* of different setting ideas have already been explored in the d20 framework. King Arthur, Ebberon, Midnight, Testament (as in Old Testament, by Yahweh!), Blue Rose, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.!

And if we go down the Indie road, there are tons of games that are all over the map setting wise. Mormon Cowboys that make the Moral Calls? Housecats tasked to protect humans from boogeymen? People trying to regain their souls by doing good deeds? I have barely scratched the surface here. None of them have gained a huge amount of market share, despite often being high quality games.

So you are asking what something totally new from all of the above, and from the Points of Light setting, would look like, that would take off and get really popular in the gaming world?

Beats me... I bet a lot of game designers wished they knew that one.

 

[Rechan]

When it comes to Marketing, talk to Fred Hicks. Guy that runs Evil Hat Productions.

He never shuts up. Seriously. He is on podcast after podcast, he is constantly blogging, he is at many cons, beating the drums for his games (as well as getting many people to run con games). He is talking to bloggers, and I think he runs some Indie Gamer organization.

When doing playtesting for the Dresden Files RPG, he begged the playtesters post online their characters, their campaign/setting information, their session notes, and their impressions. This is a brilliant strategy, by having everyone toying with the system talking about the game without going into too much detail about the nuts and bolts.

 

[GreatLemur]

I wouldn't really say such a thing is impossible, but seriously, the last thing we need is another Tolkien-esque fantasy RPG.

OK, we have Rolemaster, Runequest, Harn, Talislanta, Warhammer, etc. But all of those have gone in and out print and have never really been able to snowball a large enough following to stay in print and expand in the way that D&D has. You could argue for Exalted, but that isn't what I mean by "traditional": secondary world fantasy with the basic archetypes of Tolkienian fantasy and European mythology; some degree of sword and sorcery...etc. You get the deal (and hasn't Exalted waned in popularity?).

Hell, if Exalted isn't traditional enough, why even mention Talislanta?

Roleplaying is a niche hobby.

DnD owns that niche. All other games fight for the crumbs.

I'd believe that a bit more if I hadn't run into people who'd gamed for years without playing D&D, even though they didn't have any particular aversion to it. D&D is the biggest, obviously, but White Wolf sure holds a lot of space on the shelves at Barnes & Noble.

Fantasy Heartbreaker is exactly what you want. The bulk of innovation in this hobby happened long ago. You might chance upon an innovation, but you mainly want to leverage the experience of the past.

Play some indie games. Seriously. There is huge innovation going on, these days.

 

[Korgoth]

Maybe it merely reflects my preferences, but I think that an utterly simple, purely d6-based traditional fantasy game might be able to claim some market share. I think a well done and cleaned up version of Tunnels and Trolls would be the sort of thing that could work. The problem with T&T itself is that to actually take market share you have to be aggressive (and T&T's marketing could do with a little elan), and the fact that some aspects of T&T need punching up (mainly, I think the spell list needs to be expanded and perhaps the names should be de-sillyfied; also, demihumans need to be a little more balanced).

In T&T, everything is d6 based, you do noncombat stuff by an attribute save (with a varying DC based on how tough it is relative to the character), and monsters can be represented with just one stat (MR or Monster Rating).

You want to have a product that provides a stark contrast to the competition. T&T does this in that it is super fast to play and has very few (but flexible) rules. It still has classes, levels, elves, swords, wizards and all the usual stuff.

 

[hamishspence]

Steve Jackson & Ian Livingstones Titan setting

I'm not sure if there was a true RPG in this setting, its currently mostly Pick Your Own Path books. But there was a sort of Monster Manual (Out of the Pit) and a campaign setting (Titan)

It is the closest thing to D&D i have seen that isn't D&D. Maybe, done as an RPG, it would catch the attention of the existing players.

 

[tenkar]

I'd believe that a bit more if I hadn't run into people who'd gamed for years without playing D&D, even though they didn't have any particular aversion to it. D&D is the biggest, obviously, but White Wolf sure holds a lot of space on the shelves at Barnes & Noble.

White Wolf has possession of the biggest crumb

That being said, when Vampire the Masquerade first hit the market I believe it expanded the RPG market. It wasn't aimed at the average DnD player, it was Goth and Anne Rice and oh so dark. It found itself a new market.

For a new game to come anywhere near the success of DnD, or even the World of Darkness it would need to carve itself a new niche. It will need to find itself new gamers, not just steal or borrow from the DnD/D20 side of the hobby.

 

[Barastrondo]

You guys are cynical and assume the worst, thereby misreading my intention. I am NOT designing my own game, nor am I thinking of designing my own game. Rather, I am wondering what sort of fantasy game might thrive along-side of D&D, and even take a substantial chunk of the market. What you perceive as my (supposed) "Fantasy Heartbreaker" is merely me speculating on what that game might look like.

I say "Fantasy Heartbreaker" because I can't think of any better way to describe the mentality that would bring something like that out. Even if you're not putting it out, whoever theoretically would is going to be designing a fantasy heartbreaker — it's just their hearts at stake, not yours.

The thing about gaming traditions is that the longer you hold on to them, the farther they diverge from other gamers' traditions. A game that appeals to the people who, say, don't like "newfangled" character options like tieflings or warlords may not get even a second look from people who like a more "traditional" core game mechanic but enjoy more options for player characters. The traditions you establish in your game are based on what works for you and your players. Someone trying to target "traditional" play is going to, first and foremost, be faced with the challenge of identifying traditions that tens of thousands of gamers can all agree on as core, and then build a game that serves them better than what they're playing.

I can't help but associate the urge for a "traditional" fantasy game with the fantasy heartbreaker, to be honest. It's tied right into the belief that the creators' favorite traditions are everyone else's; the heartbreaking part comes when they find out that it's not the case to the numbers they'd hoped.