Is a popular non-D&D traditional fantasy RPG possible?

[GreatLemur]

And since 4e D&D *is* the juggernaut, it by definition cannot possibly ever be a fantasy heartbreaker. It isn't in competition with an 800 lb gorilla. It *is* the 800 lb gorilla.

No disagreement here.

 

[Particle_Man]

Guys, a fantasy game *did* outstrip D&D.

Wotc came up with Magic: The Gathering. It sold like hotcakes.

2nd edition AD&D was in trouble. TSR was in trouble.

Wotc was doing so well, it *bought* D&D from TSR. I mean, just *bought* it! Then it retooled it to 3e, and that sold like hotcakes.

Now they have retooled it again and 4e i selling like hotcakes (you know, I don't even know what hotcakes are, but I imagine they are big sellers, whatever they are).

So Wotc already has proved that it can do better than D&D, without needing the D&D brand recognition.

D&D didn't make Wotc a bigger seller just by sitting there and coasting on the D&D name brand (anyone get the pun there?) -- Wotc made D&D a bigger seller by getting feedback, retooling it, etc.

 

[Dlsharrock]

Magic the Gathering is a good example of innovation, but I wouldn't personally call it RPG. What I mean is, it could be argued that WoW, a fantasy game, outstripped D&D since it has more players worldwide, but it isn't an RPG.

 

[Desdichado]

Who cares where the term fantasy heartbreaker originated? It's pretty well-known in the online gaming community, and therefore is a useful term to use. This complaint that the term is too high-brow for common usage seems really bizarre to me.

 

[apoptosis]

I believe the term did originate at The Forge, coined first by (unsurprisingly) Ron Edwards: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

Here is a relevant quote:



(Bold-face my emphasis)

So by that definition, which must be considered THE definition in that it is the original, I would say that what I was speculating about is not inherently a Fantasy Heartbreaker, but very well could be. I would discount the specific ideas I presented, as they are just speculation--and I would also add that some of them aren't quite FHs in that they are more than "a single creative step" from the source.

Actually, the term is very useful for this discussion, because it may be that in order for a game to "Survive & Thrive" it must not be a Fantasy Heartbreaker, or not only. In some sense I have been saying that for a game to survive & thrive, and not only thrive but be competitive in the D&D-dominated fantasy market, it might have to be a FH, but be able to accomodate much more (in other words, slight alterations like centaurs as PCs is not enough, and typical of the FH).

Another way to define the FH, btw, would be any relatively canonical D&D campaign world or homebrew game that someone decides to publish. "My take on D&D." In that sense the FH represents an individual's customization of the core D&D mythos (fluff and/or crunch), and is not a bad thing (nor is Edwards saying it is, imo, just that it is a doomed endeavor).

That is the most common usage of it to (didnt know Ron came up with it). Gaming in the late 70s and early 80s we saw so many of these games. They basically were D&D with the serial rubbed off and with one or 2 interesting new ideas.

Heck I tried to make one or two myself.

I think it is a good term and hits the source of this discussion. If you make a traditional fantasy RPG is it going to be much more than D&D with several new ideas tacked on.

The key word is 'traditional' and I am not sure what the OP means by that (mechanics, setting, approach etc.)

 

[Mercurius]

BUt if there was a company like WotC that could create a new game system as big as D&D, it should better be something else then fantasy. I want a good sci-fi game! I've always been more a sci-fi fan then a fantasy fan, and yet I am playing D&D most... Strange me...

This is a very good idea and may answer the question of what wouldn't clash with D&D's clientele, but overlap and garner a large chunk of players. There have been, of course, all kinds of scifi games, perhaps most notably Traveller and Star Wars, but none have gone beyond "thriving" into a perennial powerhouse.

So if a big company was willing to really push the marketing, it could happen. Maybe.

 

[RFisher]

Once the group is together, yes. I mean in terms of that "Players/DM wanted" notice in the game store or college campus or whatever. It's almost always going to be for D&D because they want to attract the most they can.

Well, I’ll take your word for that. Last time I went looking for a group that way, I don’t remember D&D having such a significant presence. (In fact, I joined a group that advertised that it was playing GURPS.) Likewise, when my groups since have looked for new players, we’ve never present ourselves as “a D&D group”.

Even so, if the D&D brand is just serving as a generic term for “role-playing game” (like “Coke” or “Kleenex”) to get people together—who then go on to play other games just as much—then I’m not sure that that really impacts the topic at hand so much.

 

[Mercurius]

The key word is 'traditional' and I am not sure what the OP means by that (mechanics, setting, approach etc.)

As with most of the words I use, I meant it loosely--not as a strict definition, but to paint a general picture. More specifically I meant secondary world fantasy with different races/peoples, magic, pre-industrial, etc. But it doesn't have to be elves, dwarves, dragons, etc--although I would think it should include the option for those.

But I used the word "traditional" to differentiate it from more exotic fantasies, or those set in modern or future times. But I suppose the core inquiry should not exclude any possible configuration of fantasy--the question being what kind of fantasy RPG might greatly thrive despite D&D's dominance, and secondarily if a more "traditional" one could, one that is thematically in a similar genre as D&D. Or would it need to be more exotic or specific or very extremely from D&D?

 

[Intense_Interest]

The question being what kind of fantasy RPG might greatly thrive despite D&D's dominance, and secondarily if a more "traditional" one could, one that is thematically in a similar genre as D&D. Or would it need to be more exotic or specific or vary extremely from D&D?

Radioshack is a "thriving" business, entirely based on profit margins- It also has no room to grow and is a sinkhole of investment. If all a Fantasy RPG wants to do is "thrive", all it has to do is keep its LLC from bankruptcy and provide a decent retirement and many good memories when the heads decide to pack up.

To be something that is of a similar genre of D&D, you would first have to decide which of the many distinct genres within the game you are going to emulate. By my count, you have 4.

*Abstract Hack & Slash Combat
*Class-based Power Accumulation
*Mythic Monsters and Magic
*"Coke" and "Band Aid" level brand recognition.
​

D&D is so hard to "defeat" or "emulate" because it has legs in all four spheres that will trample you if you don't out-strip it.

However "exotic" or "specific" is a mighty broad brush. Centaurs as PCs or Not-Medieval Implied Setting, for the Fantasy Heartbreaker fans. Exalted is "exotic" and "specific" as well: are you worried about your market being cannibalized there?

 

[apoptosis]

As with most of the words I use, I meant it loosely--not as a strict definition, but to paint a general picture. More specifically I meant secondary world fantasy with different races/peoples, magic, pre-industrial, etc. But it doesn't have to be elves, dwarves, dragons, etc--although I would think it should include the option for those.

But I used the word "traditional" to differentiate it from more exotic fantasies, or those set in modern or future times. But I suppose the core inquiry should not exclude any possible configuration of fantasy--the question being what kind of fantasy RPG might greatly thrive despite D&D's dominance, and secondarily if a more "traditional" one could, one that is thematically in a similar genre as D&D. Or would it need to be more exotic or specific or very extremely from D&D?

Ok..that helps some. I would think if the world is somewhat traditional (tolkienesque) the mechanics would really need to be original, something to pull gamers in.

Honestly though I just don't think it would happen; possible but highly highly improbable. It would always come down to why would people play this game vs the many other fantasy RPGs out there already.