Is Animating Dead Evil?

[KidCthulhu]

This discussion has gotten started on PirateCat's storyhour, but I think it's something that should be thrown open for everyone. In PC's game, a powerful undead creature has shown up, claiming to be an ancient holy man from a good church. He detects as undead, but not as evil.

I believe the crux of the discussion centers on whether the use of Animate Dead is always evil, and also whether undead are always inherently evil. Can a life be prolonged through necromancy, and the prolonged not be evil?

Go to it.

 

[hong]

I believe the crux of the discussion centers on whether the use of Animate Dead is always evil, and also whether undead are always inherently evil. Can a life be prolonged through necromancy, and the prolonged not be evil?

By the rules, it's Eeeevil if you're a cleric, but not if you're a wizard.

Otherwise, it's up to Pcat.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

That's right.

Reanimating the corpses of fallen comrades and infusing them with the stuff of the Negative Material Plane so they can walk the earth as one of the dammed is totally natural and fine. Heck, my Mom's doing it on Tuesday for the town picnic. It should be a hoot.

BG

PS For what it's worth (and remember that you're getting my opinion for free) I think it's as evil as C'thulu on toast.

 

[Nail]

I believe the crux of the discussion centers on whether the use of Animate Dead is always evil, and also whether undead are always inherently evil. Can a life be prolonged through necromancy, and the prolonged not be evil?

Go to it.

<Doffs players hat for a moment or two...>

Actually, I believe the question relevent to the campaign is whether or not PC (the DM) thinks undead are always inherently evil..... :^)

If we assume that Ghouleax has been thoroughly tested by high level clerics, and that those tests did show Sir Ghouleax to be not evil, then we can assume PC thinks undead need not be evil.

This is something the players could answer best. Have you (the players) ever met an undead in PC-land that's not evil? Someone (not a player in PC-land) mentioned a good type of undead somewher, in some expansion set or another. KidCthulhu, did you not describe PC as an "idea sponge"?

From a strictly core rules standpoint, undead are evil, if sentient. there are no exceptions. It does not say they have to be.....but one could argue that products of an evil descriptor spell must also be evil (or at least not good).

Something about tortured souls being unnaturally trapped in decaying bodies.....go figure.

-Nail

 

[hong]

That's right.

Reanimating the corpses of fallen comrades and infusing them with the stuff of the Negative Material Plane so they can walk the earth as one of the dammed is totally natural and fine.

Hey, so necromancers tend not to get invited to A-list social events.

 

[Blackjack]

Can a life be prolonged through necromancy, and the prolonged not be evil?

Well, ultimately it's up to the GM, of course.

In the real world we have the luxury of cultural relativism. Was the Aztecs' human sacrifice evil? I think so. They obviously didn't. And then there's the all-too-canonical example of the Nazis. No culture (well, no sane one) actively thinks of itself as "evil". Each culture's values are, to itself, "good", and its opponents "evil".

In D&D, though, things are more straightforward. "Good" and "evil" exist as objective concepts. There are "good" and "evil" planes, energies, beings, domains, and spells. It's quite clear that the multiverse has a strong concept of what "good" is and what "evil" is. In such a world, a culture can still choose to follow an evil practice, but now that culture is going to be well aware that it's "evil" and not "good".

Thus, it's up to the GM to define a given practice or spell as "good", "evil", or neither. Necromancy can be placed into any category. In any world I run, it's evil, because I tend to follow standard real-world mores, and messing with corpses is a no-no*. Standard D&D follows this practice, because it too wants to generally follow a real-world code of morals and ethics.

A GM could certainly deviate from the standard canon, but that's a conscious choice by the GM.

-Blackjack

* unless you work at a crematory in Georgia, where it's apparently perfectly fine. See? Cultural relativism.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I was following the discussion in the Story Hour, and I see the point that some people were trying to make, namely that any undead created with an evil spell would, of necessity, detect as evil.

This is all predicated on the actual PHB rules. You can make any determination you want for your own campaign, but I'm interested in talking about the actual rules in this case.

I don't agree with the idea that evil spell=undead detect as evil- Here's my view. Skeletons are listed as neutral, yet they are created (typically) through use of an evil spell (meaning spell listed as evil in the PHB).

That tells me that the evil "emanations" or aura that would be detected by an Animate Dead spell fade, just like the aura of any other spell fades. This leaves only the evil of the undead itself, in this case none ("Always Neutral" per the alignment of a skeleton in the MM).

This is leaving aside the possibility of undead being created by a means other than Animate Dead or similar spell. It also leaves aside the probable nature of PKitty's undead, who more likely than not has anti-divination magic cast upon him.

 

[hong]

I'm taking bets on at most 20 replies before someone mentions Hitler.

Anyone?

 

[Cerubus Dark]

This discussion has gotten started on PirateCat's storyhour, but I think it's something that should be thrown open for everyone. In PC's game, a powerful undead creature has shown up, claiming to be an ancient holy man from a good church. He detects as undead, but not as evil.

I believe the crux of the discussion centers on whether the use of Animate Dead is always evil, and also whether undead are always inherently evil. Can a life be prolonged through necromancy, and the prolonged not be evil?

Go to it.

Personaly I always treat Skeletons and zombies as having a neutral alignment. As they are only obeying the last command their creators gave them.

As for as using Animate Dead on a creature it depends deeply on why it was brought back. IF it was brought back to kill all those that it saw, then yes I would say it was an evil use. If it is used to bring back say a work animal used for hauling things then no. Again it falls under the catagory of how it was used. For the most part a Lawful Good Cleric/Mage would not do something like this unless he really needed the help or was forced to do so, as the creature would be denied its eternal rest.

Prolonging life
This is a good question, but as the body withers the mind is often lost. Take a liche for example, as time goes on they start to lose their grip on reality and slowly sink into a pit of madness. If a PC wanted to take this route I would force them to make a will save with a DC of 20 + years they have been undead. Faliure would result in a total loss of sanity. Then again this is based off of what I know of the spells and how I rule it as a DM.

 

[SableWyvern]

By the rules: undead are not always evil (check out Ghost), but creating them is.

Beyond that, it's really a matter of what the DM/players decide for their campaign. IOW, pretty much what hong said - although I'm unsure what makes him say that animate dead loses the "evil" descriptor when a wiz/sor uses it.

On the topic of something being created by an evil spell being evil - I can't see the sense in that as an absoulute. Just because a source of power is evil, this does not intrinically mean that it can only be used to further evil, and the same goes with good. As an analogy, I may set out with evil intent to create a new and devastating weapon. If my research yields only a safe, clean and marvellous source of power, then the results are good. Similarly, biologists searching for cures for diseases (generally considered a good act), through their research, have brought us to within a few years of terrifying new bio-weapons (not a particularly good outcome).

Now, magic in d&d does not necessarily follow this same logic path. But whether it does or not is a matter of personal taste and campaign specifics - there is certainly no immediate, self-evident answer.