D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

[Charles Wright]

For my part, I found 4E to be very unlike any MMO. I thought of it as more like MtG. You have your cards, you play your cards, and they're used up until the next hand is dealt. D&D: The CCG.

Which backs up my claim that WotC should re-package 4E as a Magic the Gathering RPG.

On topic — Ever since the article came out in Dragon Magazine #106 entitled "A plethora of paladins" by Christopher Wood I have been pro non-LG paladins. I especially like Monte Cooke's Champion class from Arcana Unearthed.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'm starting to get a little confused here... Alignment does not make a paladin... A code does not make a paladin... so then what exactly for the many you speak of "makes" a paladin?

Though not exactly the same question, I'm going to pull a quote from Why Flexibility Advocates Like the Flexible Paladin because I think it'll help explain our position:

But what sets a paladin of any other alignment apart from a cleric? Well, the same thing that sets a LG paladin apart from a LG cleric — different abilities, and different concepts. Clerics are thinkers, and paladins are leaders; clerics truly understand the divine, while paladins understand ideals and people; clerics spent their acolyte years reading holy texts, while paladins spent their acolyte years practicing swordplay; clerics are devotees of their god, and paladins are devotees of their alignment; the details depend on the DM and players, but the paladin doesn’t need its restrictions to set it apart from other classes.

Personally, I'm comfortable with any and all of the above. In 4e, I simply treat paladins as the in-your-face military branch of their respective temples. Though I don't play PF often, I'm just finishing the write-up for the Exemplar class, a collaborative take on the paladin class that I've been working on with a few Paizo fans.

Hope that helps.

 

[Halivar]

@Xodis and @Halivar... calling an edition of D&D a card game is going to sound very edition warlike to many people. I suggest you refrain from doing so, and try to keep your arguments to Paladins.

I called 4E "D&D: The CCG" and you call that a bad thing? It's one of the best ideas an RPG had in years. Decreased system complexity plus increased tactical complexity is exactly what I wanted from D&D for that stretch. Now I'm coming back around to a more old-school mind-set, so the new edition is timely.

Which backs up my claim that WotC should re-package 4E as a Magic the Gathering RPG.

Hell yeah. Better yet; make it an actual CCG.

 

[Xodis]

Well that escalated quickly.

Back in the day, the alignment restriction and code seemed necessary to keep a character with obviously awesome stats and abilities in check. The need for that "balance" is gone in the more recent editions of the game. The archetype that is trying to be portrayed can be done by any class through feats... and furthermore... I would argue that the Cleric can already handle the niche better than the LG-only Paladin anyway.

Now its more of a flavor still fits with the original concept.

Sure you can portray the Paladin as a Cleric with some martial feats or Fighter with some cleric feats; Same effect could be done for Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Warlocks, Assassins, Barbarians....missing anyone? A Cleric has different roles than the Paladin entirely, I say the niche of a Paladin would be very unfulfilled with just a martial Cleric.

 

[TwoSix]

Hell yeah. Better yet; make it an actual CCG.

Speaking as a 4e fan, I love the idea of re-packaging the 4e rules as Magic: the RPG. 20 classes, one for each combination of role and "color" (i.e. power source).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The code does make the Paladin.

Oh, my mistake. I thought we were having a conversation, but it seems that you just want to argue at me. So I bow to your infallible knowledge and wisdom; enjoy playing D&D The Right Way.

 

[Halivar]

Sure you can portray the Paladin as a Cleric with some martial feats or Fighter with some cleric feats; Same effect could be done for Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Warlocks, Assassins, Barbarians....missing anyone? A Cleric has different roles than the Paladin entirely, I say the niche of a Paladin would be very unfulfilled with just a martial Cleric.

Agreed. For me, the RP aspect of the paladin is the entire point. The mechanical consideration takes a back seat. A CG paladin just doesn't make sense to me, and it robs the paladin of its uniqueness. The entire point of the paladin is the CODE, and the fact that devotion to that code gives them divine power. That's lawful, through and through. Maybe, MAYBE you can argue that a LN paladin could work, but only in the traditional 1E sense where LN is a natural ally of LG anyway (a la St. Cuthbert). An EVIL paladin makes RP sense, especially as a fallen paladin; but other than that, no way.

 

[Xodis]

Oh, my mistake. I thought we were having a conversation, but it seems that you just want to argue at me. So I bow to your infallible knowledge and wisdom; enjoy playing D&D The Right Way.

Good job on removing the rest of the post from your quote which goes into detail on why I think this way. You are free to leave the discussion if you have no further thoughts on it though

 

[Lalato]

A CG Paladin makes a lot of sense. A champion of freedom. A hero of the oppressed. A scourge of slavers and tyrants. Her CG aligned god(dess) grants powers in order to promote those things she cares about.

 

[Halivar]

A CG Paladin makes a lot of sense. A champion of freedom. A hero of the oppressed. A scourge of slavers and tyrants.

None of those are chaotic principles (indeed, the very idea of "principles" is inherently lawful). That sounds like a LG paladin to me. And any paladin in my game that did NOT uphold those principles would lose their powers.

Her CG aligned god(dess) grants powers in order to promote those things she cares about.

That sounds like a Good (any ethos) cleric to me. The point of the paladin (according to the multi-edition fluff) is that they have innate divine abilities from their devotion to The Cause, whatever it may be.