Is atheism even possible?

[fusangite]

The only convincing FRP atheistic worldview I've seen was Greg Stafford's concept of the Malkioni sorcerors in Runequest. The sorcerors do a particular kind of magic which they consider to be "pure" magic; the other practitioners of magic in the world have essentially hit on rituals and procedures which allow them to channel magic without understanding why and how it works.

This is akin to our recognition that medieval alchemists synthesized mineral acids and other chemicals premised on a completely erroneous understanding of chemistry. They just "lucked in" to a set of procedures which produced the right chemical reactions, reactions they, in fact, misinterpreted. But through sheer rote memorization of the procedures which brought about these reactions (sometimes containing unnecessary and unrelated steps), they were able to reliably synthesize mineral acids.

Such, in the view of Malkioni sorcerors, is the lot of the foolish clerics who believe that their rituals are actually communicating with a so-called God. Perhaps the clerics are communicating with a powerful scientific practitioner of magic who is deigning to do them the favour of answering their prayer; but more likely, the clerics' combinations of somatic gestures, material components, concentration and vocalizations are simply harnessing the natural forces of the universe and directing them.

It's pretty easy to have an atheistic religion that believes in some kind of equivalent to "the force" from Star Wars and deny the existence of gods. They might, for instance, know that the creation myths are a fiction -- the universe is eternal and was never created.

 

[Inez Hull]

Originally posted by Celtavain

The basis for Atheism is science. Since science would show that gods do indeed exist with 100% certainty, there would be no basis for atheism to exist. I say with absolute certainty, that Atheism would not exist in a D&D world.

How would science prove this, especially quasi-medieval science? Arcane magic, which is the equivalent of science in many fantasy campaigns probably could be used to prove the existence of the gods. However the existence of arcane magic could just as easily be used as an explanation for clerical magic by atheists. Scientific "proof" isn't enough if you can't dispel someones counter arguement. In fact thats the methodology of western science isn't it? - that you cannot prove something, only disprove every other possibilty?

And besides, how often do people let truth stand in the way of thier beliefs?

 

[Celtavian]

Re

How would science prove this, especially quasi-medieval science? Arcane magic, which is the equivalent of science in many fantasy campaigns probably could be used to prove the existence of the gods. However the existence of arcane magic could just as easily be used as an explanation for clerical magic by atheists. Scientific "proof" isn't enough if you can't dispel someones counter arguement. In fact thats the methodology of western science isn't it? - that you cannot prove something, only disprove every other possibilty?

And besides, how often do people let truth stand in the way of thier beliefs?

I would imagine that a mundane scientist such as a sage would go about observing the manifestation of divine power through clerics and natural phenomena and recording the results. After seeing clerics over and over again call upon a god for power or perhaps seeing the manifestation of a god's avatar or symbol, I think that would provide the necessary evidence to develop a theory that gods do indeed exist. How they came to exist on the other hand would be another scientific project altogether.

 

[Eldorian]

Back in 2e I DMed a mage/cleric that was an athesist, and used his ability to cast clerical magic to prove that one didn't need to claim to believe in gods in order to do it. However, the upshot of this is that his power was granted by an evil diety, who was using this order of mage/clerics to further his goals, mainly, to convince the elves (these guys were elves) that gods didn't exist, thereby lessening the power of elven dieties. Quite ingenious if you ask me =)

In reality, you'd have to be crazy not to believe in gods in most DnD worlds. I am an athesist in real life, and I can tell you that if priests were able to call up miracles whenever they liked, I'd believe in the source of those miracles. It is the lack of evidence in the real world that leads most athesists to come to their beliefs.

However, in some dnd worlds, notably Dark Sun, and to a lesser extend Dragonlance, the average person will never see a manifestation of godly power. In fact, most people in Dark Sun are athesists, if I recall correctly, and before the Dragonwars in Dragonlance, I bet many people were athesists.


Eldorian Antar

 

[s/LaSH]

There's something being overlooked here: in ages past, science and religion were one and the same. "Why does the thunder roll, daddy?" "Because Zeus/Thor wields his weapon, son." That was all they needed, all they could guess at. History doesn't record many atheists until modern times, to the best of my knowledge. I can only assume that people would be more concerned with fending off the orcs or scraping together enough corn after the Baron's tithes to live on, than engaging in philisophical debates. And if there are divine agents working in the world, well... that just reinforces things.

People could still be atheist. But I see no historical precedent for it. Is atheism a product of industry, science and luxury? Are people capable of asking questions today that once they were not? Throw in divine magic, largely wielded by gods who want followers (thus in beneficial ways), and you've got a reinforced belief backbone. That's what I think, anyway.

 

[Mercule]

Re: Atheism

In fact, I have a group of like-minded individuals in my campaign who have rejected magic and the gods, believing they only need to believe in their own selves rather than the false faith of a god. They are called PSIONS!

Interesting. The only psion I ever played in 2E was not only an atheist, but did not believe in "magic" per se, either. Psionics is the One True Power and all others are uneducated bumpkins weilding weapons they do not understand.

 

[fusangite]

There's something being overlooked here: in ages past, science and religion were one and the same.

Succinctly put. I had figured this wouldn't even need to be stated until I read some of the wackier posts.

People could still be atheist. But I see no historical precedent for it.

Actually, the modern belief set that we see as science/atheism was an ancient Greek philosophy called Epicureanism. There is historical precedent for pre-modern atheism just not a model that is easily integrated into D&D.

 

[Angcuru]

What about Agnosticism?

We agnostics don't outright deny the existence of a god, we just believe that it's impossible to know one way or the other.

In any case, we would be rare as well, since seeing a cleric turn back a vampire or two MIGHT hint toward the existance of a god or two.

 

[LGodamus]

You would think that some aspiring deity-to-be would cash in on the collective egos of the atheists in any given campaign world - there has to be some power in that. Besides, "Patron God of Atheists" sounds too good to pass up.

Been Done......Asmodeus Is that guy.....souls that deny all deities go to asmo to be consumed..

 

[dren]

The Usual Suspects ????

You would think that some aspiring deity-to-be would cash in on the collective egos of the atheists in any given campaign world - there has to be some power in that. Besides, "Patron God of Atheists" sounds too good to pass up.

Been Done......Asmodeus Is that guy.....souls that deny all deities go to asmo to be consumed..

Quote from the Usual Suspects "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."