D&D 5E (2014) Is Concentration Bugging You?

[keterys]

Edit: Don't have my PHB on me, but I might be remembering paladin spells from playtest. So, deferring to others who are more familiar.

 

[KarinsDad]

What exactly is the problem with Concentration? I have a paladin in my game now and even with concentration he doesn't seem to be lacking in power... or is there another issue at work here?

It's merely an issue with game style. Personally, I did not have a problem with multiple PCs stacking multiple buffs in 3E. It might have been a problem for some tables, but for me, only the durations were a problem.

Player one: "Ok, let's cast all of the one hour per level spells first, then the 10 minutes per level spells next, than the 1 minute per level spells, then the 1 minute spells. Now let's see, which spell is which?"

I don't see that problem occurring with 5E since as a general rule, most spells are either one hour (Hex or Hunter's Mark) or one minute (most of the rest).


I also think that this is a good thing for NPC casters to multi-buff and I hate the whole "Well, it's an NPC, it's allowed to work with different rules" concept. I like a world where the physics of magic work the same for PCs and NPCs alike. I want dragons or archmages to have 3 buff spells up to help thwart the plethora of stuff that PCs can throw at them.


I get the entire reason for the rule, I just think that it went too far into the "THOU SHALL NOT STACK BUFFS" territory.

If the rule is ok for people here, fine. No need to post 120 "I think the rule works great" posts. I'm looking more for ideas on how to allow a few concentration spells to work simultaneously, not for lengthy discussion on whether a given DM would do so or not; or alternatively, "why would you want to do that?".

For our table, 5 of the 6 PCs can cast spells and the 6th PC is probably the most optimized and powerful, so this is something that would benefit the entire group.

 

[Imaro]

Imaro:

It's a paladin thing: many of his smite spells require concentration, which conflicts with other buffs like Bless.

Ah, okay was missing the context here. The paladin in the group I DM was doing some really nice damage with the smite spells every round not sure how much allowing him to do that and use other concentration spells ups the power level of him and the group as a whole (especially if every caster can do it) but I'd definitely be cautious of that since it seems like it's an exponential power leap.

 

[ninjayeti]

I considered giving casters "extra concentration" to parallel a fighter's extra attacks. So a 5th level caster can have two concentration spells up, an 11th level caster can have three, and a 20th level can have four. This felt like it would loosen up the concentration rule a bit without letting things get too crazy. I have not actually tried it yet.

The bigger issue with concentration for me, especially at higher levels, is the chance to lose concentration when taking damage. Players are reluctant to spend a round casting and a spell slot on something that will only last until the caster takes a solid hit. This is particularly true of classes like clerics and paladins who are likely to be involved in melee. High damage AoE effects are also problematic - who needs dispel magic when a high level fireball is going to disrupt concentration for everyone that gets hit?

 

[Lancelot]

Concentration is not bugging me, or any of the players in my two groups. It's an amazing time-saver at the table. The non-casters are particularly grateful for the rule, as it means that the caster's turn is over almost as fast as theirs, which creates more equity of play experience. In 3e, the casters would spend minutes applying buffs before and during battle, carefully calculating their total bonuses, and layering complexity on top of complexity.

In my opinion, there are plenty of options for a 5e paladin without buff-layering... and this house rule creates the risk of "broken" buff combos. it also makes the War Caster feat basically mandatory (roll with advantage on all Concentration spells). So, not only are you changing the balance of the game for the players (casters become better), but you're also imposing a "Feat Tax" (a PC build option that is so optimal that not selecting is almost always a bad decision).

I disagree with the statement that everyone and his brother is a caster in 5e. Barbarians, fighters, rogues and monks are some of the most popular classes in our groups. Further, a change to concentration rules is not equally benefiting all casters. For example, clerics and paladins have a lot more buff spells than a sorcerer.

Finally, I'd suggest that the change needs to be carefully considered in light of the "5 minute adventuring day". If casters start blowing through 4-5 concentration spells every combat, they're going to run out of steam very quickly. The DM might argue: "Well, that's a choice they've made". But in practice, that's not actually a good answer. If the "adventuring day" is predicated on 5-6 encounters before a long rest, and the caster has blown his/her load well before the end of it, then the final few combats become "not fun" for the caster. But worse yet, they become more dangerous for everyone else as well. I've seen more than a few non-caster players get seriously angry over the casters burning through everything in the first few encounters, and then whining that they need a long rest... or they have no way of supporting the non-casters in the climactic fights.

Notwithstanding all of that: if your whole group is behind the change, and it's going to add more fun to your game, then go for it. At the least, I like the increasing DC making it easier to lose all of the buff spells at the same time (...even if I strongly feel that changing the existing rule is going to lead to significant balance issues, and possible anti-fun for non-casters).


...

Summary: I don't have a recommendation for a "better" multi-concentration rule. However, I'm listing some points above that I think it would be worth considering for anyone clever enough to come up with a "better" multi-concentration rule. Specifically... What to do about the War Caster feat? How to limit the extra play time burned up on the caster's turn? How does the house-rule impact the number of encounters per adventuring day? How does it impact the experience of the buff caster (e.g. cleric) vs the non-buff caster (e.g. sorcerer)? What about the impact on PC stats and feat choices (Constitution becomes a much more valuable stat for all buff casters)?

 

[Staffan]

Might be a little off topic, but do I understand the "smite spells" correctly? You concentrate on it, you hit, you deal extra damage and the spell ends? Or can you concentrate on it even after dealing extra damage and deal that damage again?

The Smite spells follow this pattern:
* Bonus action to cast.
* Duration Concentration, up to 1 minute.
* The next time you hit with a weapon attack before the spell ends (so it's a one-time thing, but you don't lose it on a miss, you just delay it a bit), deal X extra damage and inflict some kind of status effect.
* The status effect lasts for as long as the spell does. In some cases, the target also gets additional saves.

I think these are fine concentration spells. To those saying "But then I can't use them with bless or divine favor!", I say "Working as intended." And to those suggesting ways to concentrate on multiple spells: that's something the devs have called out as being explicitly broken.

 

[Sunseeker]

Personally I find the concentration DC to be far too low and my wizards/sorcs/etc... who tend to stand away from the front and are adept at avoiding damage can IMO, maintain powerful spells while at the same time, firing off other powerful spells, basically doubling their output per turn. I would prefer if all spells just had a fixed time or number of rounds until they expired.

 

[keterys]

I also think that this is a good thing for NPC casters to multi-buff and I hate the whole "Well, it's an NPC, it's allowed to work with different rules" concept. I like a world where the physics of magic work the same for PCs and NPCs alike. I want dragons or archmages to have 3 buff spells up to help thwart the plethora of stuff that PCs can throw at them.

As long as both PCs and casters are limited to not tons of buffs, how would this be NPCs working differently? Concentration is actually a really good thing for limiting one of the biggest problems with NPC casters in 3rd edition.

Namely that they were _far_ more effective than non-casters. Not only because they had spells at all, which 3e overfavors a bit, but also because they could blow their entire pyramid on one fight.

So, 5e casters will have their whole pyramid available to them which is still a serious balance issue - having just done an entire mod of fights each with several scary guys and one caster where every fight was "who cares if it has a deadly poison super smash trample flying breath whatever. kill the caster first cause he can fireball _every round_".

Which I guess suggests another thing you could do, which is have Concentration spells limit the casting of other Concentration spells to some extent. Perhaps you can cast a total spell level equal to your highest spell level. So you can cast 5th level spells? Great, one 5th, or a 3rd and a 2nd, or a 4th and a 1st, or 5 1st. Of course, a certain amount of madness lies that way too, but it's worth investigating.

You could also charge extra spell slots for Concentration spells while you're concentrating already.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I like concentration. It makes magic feel difficult, fickle to maintain and impossible for mortals to truly master. It adds to the danger level for me, which as a player I enjoy.

 

[Vael]

I'm quite happy with Concentration. It's a key to balancing the Moon Druid, as it can kill their Barkskin spell. I like that the PCs had to scramble after the Acolytes to take out their Bane debuffs. Yes, it's something to manage, but it encourages some counter play and tactics and makes casters think. All good things, IMO.