Is coup de grace a broken rule?

[Soldarin]

People rarely sleep in an unsecure place. Having watchanimals or even a watchman aren't luxury items. People ARE really vulnerable when sleeping (back in 2e, if you attacked a sleeping creature with a dagger it died).

Though performing a coup de grace with a polearm (longspear) is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. A heavy pick, now that works!

 

[Olive]

It has been said that coup de grace is for exceptional circumstances, yet in the listing of where it applies it specifically says sleeping creatures. This is about 6-8 hours a day, perhaps except for elves who can stay awake round the clock. This is why I think it is a broken rule.

Sure, but in a violent world it would be exceptional for these creatures not to have guard animals or the alarm spell running

When silenced and invisible creatures can assasinate any sleeping character better than an assasin can, something is wrong.

No, they can assasinate them exactly as well as an assasin, not better.

Otherwise no one would go adventuring as they would be killed in their sleep. Imagine a rat sneaks up to a character sleeping by the fire and bites their neck. The PC then has to save vs fortitude DC12.

I'd house rule it so that only a creature smark enough to make a coup de grace can initiate one.

 

[green slime]

How is a 1st level character regularly getting access to invisibility and silence??? Being Hidden via the Hide skill is not the same as being invisible. You cannot attack and remain hidden. You cannot hide while under observation.

How is a halfling (a small sized creature) wielding a long spear (a Large sized weapon?

How is it that the party of Fire giants is so completely relaxed? Most home owners keep dogs. Other have alarms. In a place where the possibility of attack is all but remote, the likelihood of their being actual guards that stay awake is very high, precisely in order to prevent being taken unawares.

How is it that the halfling can manuever about in absolute darkness in the fire giants home? Try turning the lights out in your house and wandering around without bumping into things.

 

[Drawmack]

Coup de grace
[Full][AoO: Yes]

Description: A character can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. A character can also use a bow or crossbow, provided the character is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. If the target survives the damage, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

It's overkill, but a rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.

A character can't deliver a coup de grace against an opponent that is immune to critical hits, such as a golem.

The weapons that can be used are specifically stated and you'll note that if you limit them to these weapons, there is not x3 weapon until they get the exotic weapon proficiency.

A rogue at first level should max damage, even if he's a min/maxer at about 20 points. No 1st level character should be able to do 36 points of damage, even on a critical. This means your first level character is capable of making orc soup on the battlefield.

I like many of the solutions offered here, though I think I also see another problem. Are you running a monte haul campaign?

 

[Tom McCafferty]

No one seems to agree that the coup de grace is unreasonable. Your suggestions all concern having guards or spells.

The full scenario is as follows….

Two Fire Giants, four ogres and two dire wolves are camped in a snowy hollow about 120 feet from tree cover. The giants are sleeping round the fire and the wolves and ogres are on guard. The monsters don't have access to spells.

The party has two thieves, a mage and a druid. The thieves are made invisible by the mage, have invisibility to animals and pass without trace cast on them by the druid. The have a ring of silence. They then sneak into the camp and slay the giants, as they cannot be heard, seen or smelled. They don't even leave foot prints due to the pass without trace.

Once the giants are killed the druid and the mage join in.

This results in a party of 4 third level characters (CR3) taking out 2xCR10 + 4xCR2 + 2xCR3 monsters. Something they should not be able to do at their level, except coup de grace allows it.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I agree to the consensus: There are two problems here, none of which has to do with the CdG-rule (which is fine):

1. The party is a lot of craven cowards.

2. The DM plays his monsters really bad.

Against 1st you probably can't do to much, except getting it back to them (kobolds with warpicks or small scythes, or some punishment from the god of valor).

Against 2nd: The mentioned alarm spells, closed doors, watchdogs, people taking turns watching (any party, warband, scouting group or other with 2 or more members that doesn't post watches at night deserves to be killed by a lot of craven cowards.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

The weapons that can be used are specifically stated and you'll note that if you limit them to these weapons, there is not x3 weapon until they get the exotic weapon proficiency.

Um...

... what?

Limit them to melee weapons, or bows and crossbows?

That's... what, twenty-one non-exotic weapons with a x3 or x4 critical?

You're not making sense...

-Hyp.

 

[Bauglir]

Besides, why bother with a proficiency?

What's a -4 to an attack that always hits?

I played a rogue once that carried about a scythe on the party's pack animal just for those nighttime raids (he used a longsword normally).

He didn't use it ALL the time, but occasionally he would get the chance

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The full scenario is as follows….

Two Fire Giants, four ogres and two dire wolves are camped in a snowy hollow about 120 feet from tree cover. The giants are sleeping round the fire and the wolves and ogres are on guard. The monsters don't have access to spells.

The party has two thieves, a mage and a druid. The thieves are made invisible by the mage, have invisibility to animals and pass without trace cast on them by the druid. The have a ring of silence. They then sneak into the camp and slay the giants, as they cannot be heard, seen or smelled. They don't even leave foot prints due to the pass without trace.

Once the giants are killed the druid and the mage join in.

Coup de grace is fine.

1. Sometimes the party comes up with effective tactics. This is a good thing, really!

2. The ogres still get a spot check to notice the individual creatures sneaking in (albeit at a very high DC).

3. Edited to remove rules faux pas. Consider having the ogres ready an action!

4. Next time consider using worgs; they're magical beasts, and immune to invisibility to animals. Or maybe the giants have a tripwire of alarm (a custom magic item with an alarm spell on it) set up ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

3. Coup de grace is a full round action -- which means it starts on the beginning of the player's turn, and ends at the beginnning of his next turn (just like a full-round spell).

No, no, no, no, no.

Coup de grace is a full round action, just like a full attack, or loading a heavy crossbow, or a sorcerer casting a metamagicked spell, which means he can't do anything except take a 5' step before or after he makes the CDG attack. It still finishes in his turn.

See PHB p121 and p128.

A spell with a casting time of One Full Round requires a full round action, and also continues until the next round. It's completely different to any other full round action.

There are only two ways to interrupt a Coup de Grace - with a readied action, or with the AoO it provokes.

-Hyp.