Is coup de grace a broken rule?

[RigaMortus2]

Are you kidding me? Would it be more gooder to wake up the fire giants and challenge them to a fair fight?

I mean, criminy. Given that the PCs are tracking these giants down, there's a good chance that the giants were part of a war party. Fire giants on the warpath=lots and lots of dead innocent people. If the PCs committed suicide-by-giant, that'd be at best lawful stupid, and quite possibly a selfishly evil act IMC (valuing their own honor above the lives of countless innocent people).

It's not like they were killing puppies in their sleep.

Daniel

I'm saying, why bother? Take a look at the description of "Good" and "Evil" in the PHB. Then tell me which one values life, and which one does not. Then tell me if their actions were Good or Evil.

There are MANY other ways of dealing with (sleeping) Fire Giants other than killing them. Heck, other than combat as well. Since we don't know the background as to why they were following them and why they wanted to kill them, their blatant disregard for one's life (even an enemy's life) perceives their actions as Evil.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There are MANY other ways of dealing with (sleeping) Fire Giants other than killing them.

For a third level party? Name three.

Heck, other than combat as well. Since we don't know the background as to why they were following them and why they wanted to kill them, their blatant disregard for one's life (even an enemy's life) perceives their actions as Evil.

Of course, had they approached on white warhorses, blowing trumpets and challenging the Giants to single combat, and (somehow) slaughtered them all, they'd be comsidered heroes and champions of Good in the struggle against the depredations of the evil Giant overlords, yes?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

There are MANY other ways of dealing with (sleeping) Fire Giants other than killing them. Heck, other than combat as well. Since we don't know the background as to why they were following them and why they wanted to kill them, their blatant disregard for one's life (even an enemy's life) perceives their actions as Evil.

Suggestions, please, for how else the PCs could have stopped these giants from carrying out their presumably vicious evil mission?

I invite the OP to tell us here what the PCs knew about the giant's mission. Until then, let's imagine something fairly common: let's say that the fire giants are a scouting party looking for a good route for a giant invasion of human lands. Or let's say that they're carrying a message of peace from one giant king to another, potentially forming an alliance that will be an unstoppable force of evil. Or let's say that they're simply out for a good old-fashioned slay-and-pillage raid against human lands.

What could PCs do against any of these options that would prevent the giants from harming lots of innocent folks?

Daniel

 

[Drawmack]

They still have a smell. A scent-source that is invisible, utterly silent, andleaves no tracks should have had those dire wolfes emptying their BLADDERS in consternation.

You might want to reread the pass without a trace spell

Pass without Trace
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Targets: One creature/level touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subject is impossible by nonmagical means.

 

[Storm Raven]

To the original poster: So, how is it running a game of evil characters such as these? I've never played in all evil campaign before. Must be nice to have the freedom to kill indiscriminately like this party seems to do.

Umm, yeah. Which version of D&D are you playing. Mine lists Fire Giants as "often lawful evil", and one can guess that in the context of the game in question, the giants were on their way to, or returning from performing evil acts. Doing the sort of thing the PCs did is entirely in keeping with a good alignment. Note that the description of a "good" alignment says that good characters seek to protect innocent life. Not all life. You are implicitly assuming that the fire giants and ogres are "innocent".

 

[Drawmack]

1) Giants are intelligent creatures, as such their alignment is a usually status. This means that this band could have been rogue peace loving fire giants off to warn a local lord of a pending giant invasion and help him fortify the kingdom, thereby saving it from doom which the PCs have just helped bring about. Or any number of other things.

I am affraid that killing the giants without knowing their motives and mission is an evil act. IMC: Killing is always an evil act except in self-defense. The end does not justify the means IMC. The reason being is when one thing ends another begins, this means there are no true endings therefor nothing can ever be justified under the ends justifies the means scenario hence the means must justify the means.

I invite the OP to tell us here what the PCs knew about the giant's mission. Until then, let's imagine something fairly common: let's say that the fire giants are a scouting party looking for a good route for a giant invasion of human lands.

Illusion and glammer spells to make the fire giants believe there was no good route into the human lands. The PCs follow them and do that without ever engaging in a direct confrontation.

Or let's say that they're carrying a message of peace from one giant king to another, potentially forming an alliance that will be an unstoppable force of evil.

The rogues slip into the camp and replace the message of peace with a message of war. Giants are now fighting each other, problem solved.

Or let's say that they're simply out for a good old-fashioned slay-and-pillage raid against human lands.

One war party - ummm no.

 

[Drawmack]

Umm, yeah. Which version of D&D are you playing. Mine lists Fire Giants as "often lawful evil", and one can guess that in the context of the game in question, the giants were on their way to, or returning from performing evil acts. Doing the sort of thing the PCs did is entirely in keeping with a good alignment. Note that the description of a "good" alignment says that good characters seek to protect innocent life. Not all life. You are implicitly assuming that the fire giants and ogres are "innocent". ]

1) OFTEN lawful evil - this means that they are not always lawful evil. Maybe these two are not.

2) That information is in the MM. How do the characters know this? How much interaction have these third level PCs had with fire giants to know that they are LE? If their town has had a lot of action then how did they live to be third level? This is meta game information which deserve consequences.

3) Define innocent life? Are innocent and good synonyms? Maybe those wolves and Orges were forced to work for the giants, so therefor they are innocent - but then the PCs have killed innocents which is not a good act.

4) Am I assuming they are innocent, no I'm just not assuming they are guilty. Is making the guilt assumption and worse then making the innocent assumption.

BTW: This is also a chaotic action - the lawful would bring the to justice. The good would follow them until they had proof they were up to no good. This action is CE unless:
1) It was a situation of kill or be killed.
2) The party knew, not assumed, the giants were up to evil.
3) There is no local law enforcement.

 

[Sejs]

Do not forget that those Dire Wolf "watchdogs" have scent, and can detect the presence of invisble foes.

Someone who is protected by Pass Without Trace leaves no scent. Heh, when they say Without Trace, they mean Without Trace. Love that spell. Great spell to put on enchanted boots for the party scout. Assassins also have it on their spell list.

There are MANY other ways of dealing with (sleeping) Fire Giants other than killing them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a third level party? Name three.

Running away from them, dying to them, and smacking a GM upside the dead for putting frickin FIRE GIANTS up against a 3rd level party.

Invisibility to Animals is an Abjuration, not an Illusion. It's not that animals can't see them; animals can't perceive them at all. You can wave your arms and shout "HEY, WOLFY!", and it will completely ignore you.

Very true. Also note, however, that Beasts and Magical Beasts are immune to Invis to Animals. Frankly what those fire giants are doing with dire wolves, and -not- large size (5-8Hd) hellhounds, I'll never know. Hellhounds fit with fire giants so much better - fire subtype just like them, lawful evil just like them, and no problem housing them in a hot volcanic home.


As for the fire giants themselves, they're highly militaristic and lawful. Racial average Int of 10, also - they're not dumb. No way they should've been as disorganized or exposed as listed in the first example.

You DO realise, the XP award for htis ... oh, my, GOD.

I most certainly do - 0 exp per person. If they don't fight back, or there's some risk involved, you don't learn anything from it. No exp. The benefit you gain from using those kinds of "gank 'em while they sleep while unnoticable via magic" tactics is that they're dead, and you're none the worse for wear.

 

[Drawmack]

For a third level party? Name three.

1) Create an avalanche on the giants
2) Create a detour in the path that takes it accross a frozen lake. Ice which the fire giants melt just by walking on and then fall into the lake and drown.
3) Invisible characters slip poison into their food.
4) Passing false information turns large armies against this particular band of fire giants.

I'm sorry but it is a role-playing game.

 

[Pielorinho]

I am affraid that killing the giants without knowing their motives and mission is an evil act. IMC: Killing is always an evil act except in self-defense.

I doubt you mean that. If I see a wasp land on an infant and I kill the wasp, it's an evil act, despite not being in self-defense? If I catch and eat a trout, it's an evil act? That's a weird campaign you got going, if you really mean what you say.

Illusion and glammer spells to make the fire giants believe there was no good route into the human lands. The PCs follow them and do that without ever engaging in a direct confrontation.

Again, that's suicide by giants. THey have scent hounds, and they're intelligent creatures. What you describe is basically impossible for a group of third-level characters, would result in their quick capture and consumption. And that assumes that the party has any illusion spells beyond invisibility.

The rogues slip into the camp and replace the message of peace with a message of war. Giants are now fighting each other, problem solved.

Excellent idea, I agree -- but are you seriously saying that provoking a war between two groups is somehow less evil than killing a small group of soldiers as they sleep? Care to explain?

One war party - ummm no.

Ummmmm yes. What on earth are you objecting to -- in your campaign, would giants never go down on an old slay-and-pillage routine? Are you suggesting the very idea is so bizarre that it'd never happen in a reasonable campaign? Whatever, friend.

Daniel