Liminal Syzygy
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The hard call you have to make then is if "starting a full round action" for a CdG wakes your target.
Is coup de grace a broken rule?
- Thread starter Tom McCafferty
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the Jester
Legend
ruleslawyer said:
Well, since the definition of cdg lists "sleeping" as one of the conditions that allows it, I'd allow them to do it before initiative. With the caveat that the ogres and wolves would've had a chance to detect them as they did it- even if they're invisible, the new smile that starts to form under the giants' necks might have been spotted. In that case, I'd assume the rogues had started a cdg before the surprise round.
In which case, they could've finished it as their surprise action, but not tumbled away til the first actual full round. Still, the wolves and ogres would likely have had to get up and such...
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
ruleslawyer said:
This is obviously a matter of opinion - but I stand by mine.
The reason is this: I envision a CdG as lining up your shot perfectly, positioning yourself over your target, and finally striking. The strike itself doesn't take longer than a normal strike -- imagine a headsman committing a CdG on a bound prisoner on the chopping block, and you'll see what I mean. It's the preparation for the perfect strike that makes it take a full round.
Invisibility is dispelled by actually striking an enemy, not by preparing to strike an enemy.
So I'd rule in this case that the first part of the CdG -- the lining up of the shot -- could actually happen before combat began. The element of surprise would be lost with the actual strike, not with the preparation to strike -- and the actual strike would only take the same length of time as any other strike, i.e., a partial action.
This looks to me like a case not well covered by the rules, and so if players tried this in my game, I'd stretch the rules to allow them to CdG as a surprise action.
Daniel
S
shurai
Guest
What most concerns me is that anybody is surprised that a party made of two rogues, a druid, and a wizard is cowardly and, what do you know, sneaking around and cutting people's throats while they sleep! Come on, people, how are they supposed to deal with bad guys? There's not a single d10 hit die in the entire party. What's the best armor in the group, animal hide or studded leather?
Anyway, I think the CDG rules are just about perfect as they are, and furthermore it makes perfect sense to me that the party got away with what they did (minus the fight with the ogres & dire wolves . . . must've been lucky rolling or something). I'm sorry but unless a creature is some kind of anatomical exception it's going to die if you have something sharp and it's asleep.
And what's all this nonsense about surprise actions? If the giants are asleep the rogues have all the time they need. The surprise round is only for use when a character is surprising enemies who are otherwise able to see and hear they're surroundings. Think of it like this: if there's nothing to cause the giants to wake up, then there's no surprise. I agree that the rogues should get a free partial action . . . to watch the giants bleed to death, since the first indication that there's trouble is, you know, a dagger entering the throat. After that, the dead giants and rogues should roll for initiative as normal, of course.
Anyway, I think the CDG rules are just about perfect as they are, and furthermore it makes perfect sense to me that the party got away with what they did (minus the fight with the ogres & dire wolves . . . must've been lucky rolling or something). I'm sorry but unless a creature is some kind of anatomical exception it's going to die if you have something sharp and it's asleep.
And what's all this nonsense about surprise actions? If the giants are asleep the rogues have all the time they need. The surprise round is only for use when a character is surprising enemies who are otherwise able to see and hear they're surroundings. Think of it like this: if there's nothing to cause the giants to wake up, then there's no surprise. I agree that the rogues should get a free partial action . . . to watch the giants bleed to death, since the first indication that there's trouble is, you know, a dagger entering the throat. After that, the dead giants and rogues should roll for initiative as normal, of course.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Pielorinho said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the DMG doesn't it state that initiative is rolled and round-by-round actions begun once either side is aware of the other. Thus, when the rogues are approaching and sneaking through the camp, they're doing it in combat rounds. The guards get a Spot check to notice them every round. The rogues also don't know where each other are or what the other is doing during the entire trek to the camp. The odds that they will perform their coup-de-graces at the same moment is remarkablely slim. And once the first rogue strikes, the second is visible. And audible. And facing a suddenly awake and upset fire giant. And the rogues don't know when their opponent's initiative is... they could be toast before they get a chance to move.
IMC, the kill-while-sleeping has been done successfully, but by a lucky invisible rogue who picked the lock to the bedroom of the leader of the enemy camp. He got in and out unnoticed, leaving a dagger sticking out of the head of the bad guy. But that was one rogue, against one target (who was alone), who slipped past both defenses and guards with very lucky rolls, and the bad guy failed his fort save by 1 point.
Tom McCafferty said:
It's not overpowered. What's underpowered are the measures you've put in place to PREVENT exactly the scenario you describe.
Look, I know why you've done it -- you're a product of amodern, ludicrously-safe world. Everyone has locks on their doors,people with the skill to PICK those locks are (thankfully) few and far between, and noone has to worry about a pack of wolves breaking into the house to turn you into wolf-chow.
But in a D&D world? With dragons, the walking (un)dead, orc hordes, and hte like? Being murdered (or worse) in one's sleep is a VERY real possibility. I daresay, every home that can afford to FEED a dog, likely HAS a dog.
Or two. Or more.
Dogs are great; they frighten off lesser, solitary predators -- sometiems even GREATER predators (I saw a piece on TV a while back, one or two (I forget) dogs up in Alaska, owned by folks who run a Polar-BEar-sighting tour-guide business. The dogs bark a lot, and act aggressively territorial, toward any polar bear they see.
And it works.
The dogs are on dut 24/7/52, too. Even when playing or sleeping -- they've got one ear (and likely bothnostrils) wide open.
When folks in a D&D world "live rough" ... they don't sleep like babies, content in the knowledge they will awake safe and secure the next morning.
They post a watch ... or they don't wake up.
Fire giants are organised militarily. You mean to say, they don't even have a small stock of potions (say, potions of See Invisible) ... ?
What (effective) military commander sends a patrol out WITHOUT at least such minimal magics ... ?
They still have a smell. A scent-source that is invisible, utterly silent, andleaves no tracks should have had those dire wolfes emptying their BLADDERS in consternation.
On top of which -- silence is just that, utter and absolute silence. If that alone didn't wake the Fire Giants up, something'sterribly wrong.
Think about it; all of a sudden, the growls, barks, or whatever of the restive wolves -- gone.
The crackle, hiss, and pop of hte fire -- gone.
The not-terribly-quiet snores of the other fire giant -- gone.
The sound of his own heartbeat and breathing -- gone!
That should've had the fire giants up and in alert-danger-fight mode, immediately.
...
Four 3d level characters.
...
Two fire giants, four ogres, two dire wolves.
...
You should NEVER have put up four 3d level characters UP against TWO fire giants alone, let alone accompanied by the wolves and ogres!!
And, even IF you did put the PCs up against that -- it should have beent he ending, climactic battle to end an entire adventure / story-arc with. Not some random nothing of an encounter in the bloody woods!
My god, ONE dire wolf ALONE was a reasonable and fair encounter for that party! Two dire wolves and an Ogre would be a challenging encounter!
Two Fire Giants, without the ogres and wolves, are EL12. That's 8 over the party level.
Four Ogres alone, withour giants or wolves, are EL 6 ... 3 over the party level.
The two wolves, no ogres or giants, would be EL5, two over the party.
All together? I'm guessing here, since differing-CR EL's are harder to figure ... but, I'd say, EL14 or 15.
Yes, you read me right, an appropriate encounter for a party of four FOURTEENTH level characters. My god, man, if that'd been a single creature, it'd be off the XP charts for SIXTH level characters!!!
You DO realise, the XP award for htis ... oh, my, GOD.
CR 10, PC3, x2 : 21,600
CR2, PC3, x4 : 2,400
CR3, PC3, x2 : 1,800
-------------------------------
Total party XP : 25,800
Per-PC award: 6,450
You just handed them nearly TWO ENTIRE LEVELS, all at once! Assuming their XP was minimumfor their stated level (L3, or, 3K XP), they now have 9,450XP each. That's spitting-distance short of 5th level!
My GOD. No offense, but ... my god ...
... and they LIVED through it? Even WITHOUT the Giants?!?
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RigaMortus2
First Post
Pax said:
I believe XP is award by the CR, which stands for CHALLENGE Rating. Since I see nothing challening about killing 2 helpless foes, I don't see why they would get exp for it...
To the original poster: So, how is it running a game of evil characters such as these? I've never played in all evil campaign before. Must be nice to have the freedom to kill indiscriminately like this party seems to do.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
RigaMortus2 said:
Are you kidding me? Would it be more gooder to wake up the fire giants and challenge them to a fair fight?
I mean, criminy. Given that the PCs are tracking these giants down, there's a good chance that the giants were part of a war party. Fire giants on the warpath=lots and lots of dead innocent people. If the PCs committed suicide-by-giant, that'd be at best lawful stupid, and quite possibly a selfishly evil act IMC (valuing their own honor above the lives of countless innocent people).
It's not like they were killing puppies in their sleep.
Daniel
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
They have a scent to the Ogres, and they have a scent to the Giants, but Ogres and Giants don't have the Scent feat.
The wolves, being animals, couldn't smell them.
Invisibility to Animals is an Abjuration, not an Illusion. It's not that animals can't see them; animals can't perceive them at all. You can wave your arms and shout "HEY, WOLFY!", and it will completely ignore you.
-Hyp.
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