Is coup de grace a broken rule?
- Thread starter Tom McCafferty
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Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Sejs said:
Dude. You're hijacking a throwaway, since-retracted comment on a hijack. Start a new thread or let it go.
Daniel
niteshade6
First Post
I think part of the problem is that people are being way too simplistic in their definitions of good and evil. The alignment system isn't supposed to say that there is no moral debate, and there is one right way to do things.
This is definetely a case where there is more then one way to be good and more then one way to be lawful. It's perfectly valid to say these creatures might not be evil and thus my moral code and my perception of the law does not allow me to kill them. But you can also look at it another way. This is a group of extremely powerful creatures with the potential to kill untold numbers of people and wreck great devastation upon villages and the like. There's no way to tell if they are friendly or not although it's very unlikely, and this is the only chance you might have to save hundreds of lives. From that perspective it could certainly be argued to be both lawful and good to kill them. It's a moral dilema, and there is nothing wrong with that. Alignment doesn't make you immune to these things. Two good characters could easily have very different ideas of what the right thing to do is.
Campaign setting might also make a difference. If your in a world where a group like this would not be able to do much damage before being overwhelmed by the army, guard, or adventurers that might influence things too. You also need to consider the environment. Are they in a contryside full of peasant towns, or out in the wilds with no towns around for weeks. You could also be in a country like Geoff that is at war with giants, and where any giants seen would be treated as enemy troops.
Anyway regarding the original discussion one thing to remember also is the DC 20 spot check to tell if somebody invisible is around. You can't tell where they are, but this would certainly raise an alarm and wake up sleeping people. Also remember that giants usualy have rediculously high fort saves and can sometimes survive a CDG. In Living Greyhawk there was somebody who lost their character when they tried something similar to a hill giant, only to have it survive, stand up, and kill him.
This is definetely a case where there is more then one way to be good and more then one way to be lawful. It's perfectly valid to say these creatures might not be evil and thus my moral code and my perception of the law does not allow me to kill them. But you can also look at it another way. This is a group of extremely powerful creatures with the potential to kill untold numbers of people and wreck great devastation upon villages and the like. There's no way to tell if they are friendly or not although it's very unlikely, and this is the only chance you might have to save hundreds of lives. From that perspective it could certainly be argued to be both lawful and good to kill them. It's a moral dilema, and there is nothing wrong with that. Alignment doesn't make you immune to these things. Two good characters could easily have very different ideas of what the right thing to do is.
Campaign setting might also make a difference. If your in a world where a group like this would not be able to do much damage before being overwhelmed by the army, guard, or adventurers that might influence things too. You also need to consider the environment. Are they in a contryside full of peasant towns, or out in the wilds with no towns around for weeks. You could also be in a country like Geoff that is at war with giants, and where any giants seen would be treated as enemy troops.
Anyway regarding the original discussion one thing to remember also is the DC 20 spot check to tell if somebody invisible is around. You can't tell where they are, but this would certainly raise an alarm and wake up sleeping people. Also remember that giants usualy have rediculously high fort saves and can sometimes survive a CDG. In Living Greyhawk there was somebody who lost their character when they tried something similar to a hill giant, only to have it survive, stand up, and kill him.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Well... to try to pull the hijack back on-topic...
When Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were chasing the Uruk-Hai that had captured Merry and Pippen, do you honestly think they would have thought twice about sneaking into their camp in the middle of the night and slitting a few orc throats? Of course not. As a matter of fact, attacking at night, by surprise, is exactly what the Rhorrimin (sic?) did to kill off that very group. And they were considered heroic people, weren't they?
When Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were chasing the Uruk-Hai that had captured Merry and Pippen, do you honestly think they would have thought twice about sneaking into their camp in the middle of the night and slitting a few orc throats? Of course not. As a matter of fact, attacking at night, by surprise, is exactly what the Rhorrimin (sic?) did to kill off that very group. And they were considered heroic people, weren't they?
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
MerakSpielman said:
Legolas (whispering): There they are, Aragorn! I can see their camp from here!
Aragorn (whispering): At last! We may yet have a chance to save our small friends! Quickly, let us approach.
[The three companions approach the Uruk-hai camp. Most of the monsters are asleep, but a guard is sitting on a stump with his back to them, gnawing on a child's severed arm]
Aragorn (loudly): I say, old chap -- we're here to attack you. Go around and wake them all up, there's a good fellow -- we wouldn't want to be rude in our attack, wouldn't want to catch you in your pajamas, ho ho.
Daniel
Sejs said:
Okay, this explains things better. I don't think it's petty, but I'm also not sure it's the best way to run things. If the players know they're going to get less XP if they come up with a clever and inventive way to defeat the enemies than they will if they just charge in and slug it out, that actively discourages the players from thinking up new ways of approaching problems. That's not a desirable situation, IMO.
niteshade6
First Post
"Okay, this explains things better. I don't think it's petty, but I'm also not sure it's the best way to run things. If the players know they're going to get less XP if they come up with a clever and inventive way to defeat the enemies than they will if they just charge in and slug it out, that actively discourages the players from thinking up new ways of approaching problems. That's not a desirable situation, IMO."
In this case they aren't getting less xps from their tactics, they are getting less xps because of the situation. A group of giants sleeping in camp taken by surprise are easier to defeat, so you get less then normal xps for it. The tactics they use to defeat their enemies don't effect their xp award, their situation does.
In this case they aren't getting less xps from their tactics, they are getting less xps because of the situation. A group of giants sleeping in camp taken by surprise are easier to defeat, so you get less then normal xps for it. The tactics they use to defeat their enemies don't effect their xp award, their situation does.
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