Is D&D magic purely Vancian? Let's settle this.

[teitan]

People say it's more like Zelazny's books now, but that's no change at all. When I read the books, the first thing I thought was "Hey, he copied D&D magic!"

The change from "memorization" to "preparation" is over-hyped too. Mechanically, it's exactly the same.

Not really considering a round went from 10 to 6 seconds and they eliminated segments which were both integral parts of the old magic system. A wizard/clerical spell did not always go off on that characters turn, but would go off in so many "segments", ie other character turns. Not everybody played this way, so that might be where you think they are the "same".

Jason

 

[Gentlegamer]

D&D magic was purely mnemonic, based on "Vancian" magic. What that meant was that the magic-user "memorized" a spell by forcing an energy pattern into his brain that represented the spell.

In the Dying Earth stories, the word "memorize" is never used. It was created as a technical term in D&D. Vance uses "encompass" to describe what wizards and anyone else who "memorizes" a spell does.

As has been noted, purely Vancian magic has only verbal components which must be recited exactly or risk mishap (such as reversing The Spell of Forlorn Encystment or The Agency of Far Dispatch as Cugel, a non-magician did). Purely mnemonic magic with verbal components was used in the original D&D game, though the risk of mishap was not present.

The AD&D game used a synthesis of "Vancian" mnemonic magic and sympathetic magic from Camp & Pratt's Harold Shea stories ("The Mathematics of Magic," et al). Sympathetic magic requires spell components that somehow match the desired effect of the spell. This was seen in the expaned material and somatic components required for AD&D magic.

Combined with the requirement to "memorize" spells, the synthesis is clear. d20 Fantasy has inherited this synthesis from AD&D.

So, to answer the OP, d20 Fantasy (3E) magic is not purely "Vancian," but the influence is still very strong.

 

[Turjan]

So when people are saying that D&D's magic system is "vancian," tis' not really then.

The reason why I ask is because sooooooo many people get hung upon that word,and it doesn't even seem applicable.

The word is definitely a good fit. When I saw D&D magic the first time, it immediately reminded me of the older Jack Vance stories. It's the only place where I personally found something like it.

But you can always see yourself. The stories that inspired the D&D magic system are both very short (about 15 pages each) and are the first two stories in the original The Dying Earth from 1950: Turjan of Miir and Mazirian the Magician. It takes only a few minutes to read them yourself .

 

[RainOfSteel]

Is there any fantasy that doesn't suck? Vance or otherwise?

Why yes, there is.

• The Amber Novels ~ Roger Zelazny
  • Nine Princes in Amber
  • The Guns of Avalon
  • Sign of Chaos
  • The Hand of Oberon
  • The Courts of Chaos
• Chaos Series ~ John C. Wright
  • Orphens of Chaos
  • Fugitives of Chaos
• The Deed of Paksenarrion ~ Elizabeth Moon
  • Sheepfarmer's Daughter
  • Divided Allegiance
  • Oath of Gold
• The Riftwar Saga ~ Raymond E. Feist
  • Magician
  • Silverthorn
  • A Darkness at Sethanon
• The Seventh Sword ~ Dave Duncan
  • The Reluctant Swordsman
  • The Coming of Wisdom
  • The Destiny of the Sword
• The Dragaera Cycle (Jhereg, etc.) ~ Steven Brust
  • Jerheg
  • Yendi
  • Teckla
  • Taltos
  • Phoenix
  • Orca
  • Dragon
  • Isola
  • Dzur
• The Saga of the Eternal Champion (21+ Novels) ~ Michael Moorcock
  • Erekose
    • The Eternal Champion
    • The Silver Warriors
    • The Dragon in the Sword
  • Hawkmoon
    • The Jewel in the Skull
    • The Mad God's Amulet
    • The Sword of the Dawn
    • The Runestaff
    • Count Brass
    • The Champion of Garathorm
    • The Quest for Tanelorn
  • Corum
    • The Knight of Swords
    • The Queen of Swords
    • The King of Swords
    • The Bull and the Spear
    • The Oak and the Ram
    • The Sword and the Stallion
  • Elric
    • Elric of Melnibone
    • Sailor on the Seas of Fate
    • Weird of the White Wolf
    • The Vanishing Tower
    • The Bane of the Black Sword
    • Stormbringer
• The Riddle of the Stars ~ Patricia A. McKillip
  • The Riddlemaster of Hed
  • Heir of Sea and Fire
  • Harpist in the Wind
• The 1st and 2nd Deryni Trilogies ~ Katherine Kurtz
  • Deryni Rising
  • Deryni Checkmate
  • High Deryni
  • Camber of Culdi
  • Saint Camber
  • Camber the Heretic
• A Wizard of Earthsea ~ Ursula K. LeGuin
• The Magic of Recluce ~ L.E. Modesitt Jr.

 

[RainOfSteel]

In Fred Saberhagen's, Empire of the East, a magic user summons an elemental. It appears to be a near-verbatim casting of a 1E Conjure Elemental spell.

There was also a magic user with a toad familiar. I was always convinced that is how it got on the list of familiars.

EDIT-----------------------

I will agree that AD&D/DnD magic resembles Vancian magic at the root.

I will also agree that other elements apply.

And of course, it contains its own features, as well.

 

[Twowolves]

Tolkien's books inspired nothing of the D&D spellcasting, though surely they inspired many other elements of the game (treants=ent, halflings=hobbit, balors=balrog, worgs=warg, werebear=Beorn, giant eagles=Gwahir and kin; the particular takes on dwarves and arguably elves; et. al.).

I would disagree. Gandalf clearly casts "Pyrotechnics" (in Hobbiton, and to chase off the wolves that had them treed) and "Knock" (unsuccessfully at the gates of Moria) and "Light" (once inside Moria). Some say he also cast "Speak with Animals" on Shadofax, and "Dispel Magic" more than once.

Vance inspired the "Prismatic" spells, and the Bible inspired around half of the old 1st ed cleric spells. Other than that, I can't really see any magical spells being influenced by Lieber nor Howard.

 

[Destil]

I like to think that Gandalf came up with lock (sealing Durin's toomb in Moria), sunbeam (driving off the Nazgul) and indediary cloud (the Hobbit, slaying the great goblin, though you could also make an argument for pyrotechincs here).

 

[CRGreathouse]

I like to think that Gandalf came up with lock (sealing Durin's toomb in Moria), sunbeam (driving off the Nazgul) and indediary cloud (the Hobbit, slaying the great goblin, though you could also make an argument for pyrotechincs here).

I agree that this would be a valid way to interpret LotR in D&D terms (you could have added the counterspell in the mines as well), but I don't think it was the inspiration for any ofthe D&D spells.

 

[Celebrim]

I would disagree. Gandalf clearly casts "Pyrotechnics" (in Hobbiton, and to chase off the wolves that had them treed) and "Knock" (unsuccessfully at the gates of Moria) and "Light" (once inside Moria). Some say he also cast "Speak with Animals" on Shadofax, and "Dispel Magic" more than once.

Gandalf's spellcasting ability is pretty easy to track. He's really fond of Invisibility. He uses it on several occassions explicitly to get somewhere without being seen, and we can gather that he's used it by implication in many cases. There is also the implication in some places that he's fond of something like 'Expeditious Retreat' when he needs to move in a hurry.

Gandalf clearly casts 'Pyrotechnics' in the Hobbit, but not at the point you site. Gandalf casts 'Pyrotechnics' in the throne room of the Great Goblin. The effects are identical to the 1st edition description, including the extenguishing of the flames in the chamber. Just prior to that, he casts 'Lightning Bolt' when the party is surprised by the goblins, and then follows that with Invisibility.

After 'Pyrotechnics', Gandalf casts 'Light' - another of his signature spells that he makes use of all the time. Gandalf seems to have almost unlimited ability with this spell, and its possibly a power of his staff. Not only can he when he wants to cast something nearer to 'Daylight', but he on occassion does something closer to 'Blinding Flash'. When treed by the Worgs, Gandalf casts some sort of 'orb' spell similar to 1st editions 'Melf's Minute Meteors' - which apparantly convienently has pine cones as a material component.

Back before that, with the trolls, Gandalf casts 'Ventriloquism'.

As you mentioned, Gandalf clearly casts 'Knock' at the gates of Moria. But you missed what's arguably 'Detect Secret Doors' which he uses to reveal the gates, and when he clearly cast 'Hold Portal' at Balin's tomb to keep the Balrog out.

I don't think Gandalf needs to cast 'Speak with Animals' with regards Shadowfax. First, that's not really his thing. Gandalf is all into illusions and evocation spells. Radaghast is more of the 'Speak with Animals' type. Secondly, Gandalf's relationship with Shadowfax is much closer to a D&D familiar than anything else. If I had to pick a spell inspired by Shadowfax, 'Mount' would be a pretty good candidate.

 

[WayneLigon]

hey, so I was thinking of trying to read some Jack Vance, but he's got a whole lot of books out there, and I don't know where to start. Other than LotR, I have no patience for the fantasy genre. I peeked inside a Harry Potter book once and nearly puked.

Is there any fantasy that doesn't suck? Vance or otherwise?

If you can't stand fantasy, how can you stand to play D&D?