I don't agree that any of this needs a hard-coded resolution system.
The issues of framing and of mecahnics are orthogonal. As I said in my post, I think there is no real point in looking at the mechanics if you haven't first sorted out the issue of framing.
But the rest of this post is mostly about mechanics.
My question is this: how do any of these more-die-rolls-for-social-situations proposals do anything other than mechanically discourage players from actually role-playing their characters in character in favour of just rolling dice?
That's right, they don't.
And you know this because . . . ?
Read
these two actual play reports and then get back to me.
Social resolution systems in games that have them (3E doesn't count - its Diplomacy skill is not an effective social resolution system) depend upon the players declaring actions - ie saying what it is that their PC says/does - and then making checks to see how the situation unfolds.
Here's another example, from my Marvel Heroic RP game (sblocked for length - I posted this in mid-2016 but it got wiped in the great server crash, and so the below is cut-and-pasted from the file on my hard drive):
[sblock]The players of Ice Man and War Machine took up those PCs again, and a third player - new to the system - picked up Nightcrawler. The action started a day or two after the events of the previous session: War Machine had been able to fly back to Washington after being driven to ground over Florida in the earlier battle with Titanium Man; and Nightcrawler had arrived in town to meet up with Bobby Drake.
I asked the Nightcrawler player how he wanted to introduce Kurt into the scenario, and he decided that he and Bobby would go to a bar to try and pick up. (I hadn't looked at Nightcrawler's milestones, but as it turns out he has a "Romantic" milestone and the player was seeking to capitalise on that.) James Rhodes came along as wing man. Kurt's player spent his starting plot point for an image inducer as a d6 Tech resource.
Flipping through my Civil War book with its roster of B-list characters, I found three suitable women for a bar scene: Black Mamba, Asp and Diamondback (collectively the B.A.D. mercenaries). The scene distinctions were Dark Bar and Seedy Back Rooms, but these didn't come into play.
Anyway, this produced one of the more inane sequences of my GMing career: I described the three women and tagged Nightcrawler's player to go first. Kurt fastened on Tanya (Black Mamba), and succeeded in inflicting a Smitten complication on her. Bobby tried to chat up Rachel (Diamondback) but as a Skilled Mercenary with Covert Expertise, she recognised James Rhodes and was more interested in talking to him about Stark tech and a new and sophisticated vehicle being delivered to the Smithsonian - and managed to get him pretty tipsy with a d8 Drunk complication. So Bobby had to settle for Cleo (Asp), and inflicted a Mutual Sympathy/Pity complication on her (they were the last two left, and so apparently had to hook up by default).
I had decided that the B.A.D. women had been paid to extract the vehicle from the Smithsonian (so why were they hanging out in a bar? Put it town to comic-quality continuity). So Tanya, smitten by Kurt but enjoying Playing Both Sides (one of her Distinctions), decided to try to bring him along on the heist. So at her instigation they left the bar in a cab, with Rhodes and Diamondback tagging along. But Kurt stopped the cab at the Washington Monument instead, where he continued to successfully seduce Tanya. She was in Telepathic communication with Cleo back at the bar (still trying to coordinate the team for their job, and also getting her Buddy die which is better than her Solo). But Kurt first spent a Plot Point to cause her to "lose consciousness" (triggering her Conscious Activation Limit and thereby shutting down her Telepathy), and then Teleported her to a romantic place where he proposed to her (bringing his Devout Catholicism to bear) and succeeded in stepping up her Smitten complication to d12+, effectively taking her out of the scene.
(The rules aren't clear on whether or not Complications can be stepped up like Stress can, but it makes sense and so we were allowing it.)
I also told Kurt that (with his Enhanced Senses) he could see some shadowy types sneaking into the Smithsonian - these were the Silver Samurai and a mob of Clan Yashida ninjas, and they were able to take their turns unopposed to add some needed dice to my Doom Pool.
Meanwhile, James (who had started with a Plot Point for having no armour) made a successful roll against the Doom Pool to bring his armour to him, and then took Diamondback for a flight - "Would you like me to show you my Stark tech?" But then a message came through on his helmet radio that an alarm had been triggered on the vehicle in the Smithsonian - at this point it needed a name, and so I christened it the M-PORV (Multi-Passenger Orbital and Reentry Vehicle). So he interrupted his romantic flight with Diamondback - who was still more interested in her mission, even though she hadn't succeeded in persuading Rhodes to join with her in carrying it out - by hooking her to the top of the Washington Monument (a d10 Stuck on top of the Washington Monument complication) before flying to the Smithsonian himself.
Bobby, meanwhile, had left the bar with Asp (Cleo) and taken her to the Washington Monument so that he could freeze the lake for their ice-skating pleasure. Cleo was worried about Tanya (having lost telepathic communication) but was also still willing to hang out with Bobby (she was still under the complication). He imposed more complications on her (In His Arms) and also rescued Rachel from the top of the monument by creating ice steps (mechanically, a d10 effect to remove the complication). Given that Black Mamba is described as "a former call girl turned super villain turned mercenary hero" who Plays Both Sides and is a Covert and Psych Expert, it seemed rather ironic that she should fall for a play that she must have used on others many many times. (But that is the fate the dice had in store for her.)
Although he was feeling rather Don Juan-ish, and somewhere about here managed to inflict a d8 He's Not Too Bad After All complication on Diamondback, nothing had happened to dissuade the women from trying to steal the M-PORV from the Smithsonian. But before they could, the action shifted back to Nightcrawler. He used his image inducer to take on the appearance of a Smithsonian guard, teleported in, and (with a mighty roll, including a fair bit of Plot Point expenditure to keep extra dice and so boost his total to allow stepping up his effects) took out 4 ninjas and put d10 physical stress on the samurai.
War Machine then came flying in and unleashed on the Samurai, taking his stress up to d12. And Bobby took advantage of the fact that Asp was In His Arms to freeze her feet to the lake (mechanically, stepping up the complication to 12+). Diamondback, though, was able to escape his attempt to freeze her by blasting away with one of her exploding diamonds (as a reaction). She then ran to the Smithsonian, where she took advantage of the mayhem to try and steal the M-PORV (I had determined that a d8 effect die would be sufficient for this). But despite several attempts (three, I think, all well-boosted from the Doom Pool) War Machine was able to stop her every time.
The Silver Samurai, on the other hand, was able to get the better of Nightcrawler in their fight, stressing him out; though War Machine was then able to finish him off. War Machine also tried to take out Diamondback with an all-out assault (which then triggers his Shutdown Limit) but she was able to survive this and have what was her last attempt at taking the M-PORV. Bobby then arrived on the scene, used his Psych Expertise and the complication, and was able to step it up to d12+ and sweep her romantically away on an ice slide. So she didn't get the M-PORV, but in the end Bobby did get the girl.
We then cut to a Transition Scene, the next day. Kurt's player spent another Plot Point for a resource, this time a d6 X-Man class first aid kit from his Medical Expertise, and made a roll to reduce his d6 Trauma from being stressed out. Despite a fairly large Doom Pool this was a success, and so his Trauma stepped down to d4. James Rhodes called in a d6 Covert Resource to get a lead on what was going on with the whole "bad guys all focused on the Smithsonian"-thing, and learned that there seemed to be two different forces: a European contingent, for whom Titanium Man is working, and who probably hired B.A.D; and another group who had hired Clan Yashida. The intelligence suggested that Clan Yashida itself had not interest in aerospace technology, but having been hit hard by the financial crisis was in the market as ninjas for hire.
Around this point Nightcrawler's player also pointed out that he had earned 10 XP by completing his Romantic milestone (though I think more cynically than would the "true" Nightcrawler), and so we decided (per the rule about adding a new SFX) that he could keep the Silver Samurai's energy sword and get its ability to inflict an effect on a successful reaction without having to spend a Plot Point - this seeming to fit with a slightly more gritty version of Nightcrawler's swashbuckling traits.
After some discussion the PCs decided to follow the lead to Japan rather than to Kazakhstan
<snip the accoiunt of the raid on the Yashida Enterprises skyscraper in Tokyo>
Overall this was a fun session. The bar pick-up action was pretty close to the limits of my own preferences for romantic/sexual content in RPGing, but with resolute GMing and use of the Doom Pool dice to help out my NPCs I was able to maintain another dimension to the action (the M-PORV/Smithsonian scenario), and the system showed itself able to handle non-combat action without trouble, which was the same as what we found in our earlier session.[/sblock]As well as examples of mechanical systems, these also show how framing and consequence-narration can be used to get all the players involved in the situation.
what I get now is just "I'll make a persuasion check". I hate that and its the farthest thing from immersion to me. Plus it puts uncertainty in a situation where there may not need to be any. I may ask for a skill check after that or CHA check if its iffy and the situation needs a check to resolve a questionable outcome but why rush to that point?
Having a social combat and defense value and rolling that out like physical combat no thank you. To me RP needs to be more than leveraging the numbers on your sheet against other numbers.
What you describe here is not how games with social conflict resolutoin mechanics handle it. If you look at the examples I've linked to/posted above, you'll see that there social interactions have quite a bit of richness, and involve unexpected twists and turns.
Nobody in my group has sword fought to the death, but they are all experience in BS'ing, persuading, cajoling, and flattering people that they can use at the table in a roleplay situation. So we need mechanics in that area far less than combat. To me its more fun and immersive as a player to think of how I'm going to talk to a town official than thinking well I"ve got a +8 and I need to pass a check.
When I'm running a game and a player says they want to convince the burgermeister of Diertburg of something, I want them to think what they are going to say and roleplay it out, give me a synopsis of what they are trying to say to him, or even jump into the skin of the PC and play it out like they are the PC talking. As a DM I know what will convince the NPC or what will influence them. If I was a good DM I dropped a lot of hints in that regard as well.
I agree, it's fun to think of how I'm going to persuade an official. The point of social resolution mechanics isn't to eliinate that fun. It's to give a way of working out
whether or not the town official accepts what I've said.
The main alternative is the one you describe: the GM has decided what will or won't convince the town official, and has given hints about that, and so the players are trying to solve a puzzle - interpret the GM's hints and then say the right thing to the official.
I think a benefit of having social resolution mechanics is that they give a different way for working out whether or not the player had his/her PC say the right thing. Instead of asking "Is this the thing the GM had in mind as something that will convince the NPC?", we ask "Is the roll made to determine the consequences of what the PC says a success?"
It's not a way of eliminating the RP, because if the player doesn't actually declare an action then we don't get to the point of making a roll.
And good mecanics will enforce the need for an action declaration. In a 4e skill challenge, the player has to say what his/her PC is doing/saying, because otherwise the GM (i) can't apply situational modifiers (generally +/- 2) based on how apt or outrageous it is, and (ii) can't work out how the fiction changes in response to success or failure. In MHRP, the player has to say what his/her PC is doing/saying, because that establishes the effect generated by a success (if you wan't to impose a Smitten complication, you've got to say what you're doing that will make the other character smitten with your character).
One weakness of the Duel of Wits in Burning Wheel is that it makes it possible to resolve actions without this sort of action declaration being required. (A bit like D&D combat, which doen't actually require you to say what you're doing to try and defeat the other person, besides a very generic "I attack with my sword".) Although DoW has some other strengths, I think I actually prefer the 4e skill challenge system.
