Is E-Tools worth it?

[Christoph the Magus]

Ok. To answer the original question: Yes, Etools is well worth the price tag. I absolutely could not DM my current 3.0 game without it. I haven't purchased any of the data sets, as I don't use much outside of the core rules, so I can't speak to their quality. But the basic program, with all of the patches applied, literally saves me hours every week. The program makes the game managable for me as the DM, and more fun for my players since I am better prepared. I can't recommend it enough.

 

[Zulithe]

After reading the discussion here, I'm going to give DM Genie a try. I love PCGen and I think eTools is a flawed yet feature-full product (can't wait for CMP's next tool! looks great) but for now, after seeing the screenshots, DM Genie looks right up my alley.

I can't for the life of me see the sharing of datasets as a crime. If I buy a WotC book, I technically have the right to produce my own dataset for PCGen, DM Genie, eTools or whatever else I like, do I not? So, what if I met someone on the internet who happened to also own the book, and already had done the data entering for themselves? What is so wrong about sharing it?

I disagree with the book/movie analogy. If I owned the book, and downloaded the movie off of the internet then that would be stealing. But, if I owned the book, and I made my own movie based on the book, and showed it only to people who also owned the book, and I was not looking to make a single penny off of this, then I see no theft.

Did any of you download and watch that fan-made Batman movie "Dead End"? Pretty good, wasn't it? I liken it to that.

The only thing "wrong" is that companies are seeing opportunity to make extra money and are upset when people find clever ways around it instead. And in my eyes, these people are doing nothing immoral.

 

[rlphay]

Ok, I can see that there is a few people here that never even bother to go to the CMP web site and see just what it is that they have been doing for the last couple of years since they got the code for etools. It is not even the same product as what was originally released. It is much better, has a ton more features and way less bugs.

The databugs are and have been addressed at first on a monthly basis when there was only a few books, but now it s on a bi-monthly basis because there is just to many books to get out monthly. And have the bugs been getting addressed that are posted on the CMP message boards, Just go there and take a look and see for yourself. When the bugs get fixed for the next update, the bug thread is updated and then locked so that it is easy to see which ones have been addressed.

ET Helper also has been getting updated with each patch that was released. SOmetimes there might be a delay of a week or 2 before the new version is available after a patch comes out, but it has always gotten done and been released. Heck even in the special ET Helper section on the CMP board that Mynex talked about, if users are having issues or need help with it, there is always someone that jumps in and give a hand.

So basically unless you actually want to do some research on a product that you want to talk bad about, you really have nothing valuable to say. It would be like my 4 year old daughter telling me all the bad about a computer program that I just installed onto her computer before she even ran it.

I can't for the life of me see the sharing of datasets as a crime. If I buy a WotC book, I technically have the right to produce my own dataset for PCGen, DM Genie, eTools or whatever else I like, do I not? So, what if I met someone on the internet who happened to also own the book, and already had done the data entering for themselves? What is so wrong about sharing it?

So basically here if you do out and buy a book, you feel that you own the rights to do with this book all that you want to. Based on this logic it would be ok for you to buy a copy of a WotC book, scan the entire contents into a pdf file, and then share it with anyone else that ownes a copy of the book. Hey, if you own it then it is ok to share it with anyone else that owns it right? Sure this is not data that is going into a program for use but it is the same information and IP of WotC that you would be sharing, just in a different format. And if you really believe that this is legal, then you are misunderstood.

I am also sure that you and I own a couple of music CD's that are the same as well. How about I rip them into MP3 format and then share them with you. Same principle here. Just because you own the product, does not give you the right to share it with anyone else requardless of the format. Just ask Napster.

So I am going to go back to fixing bugs with the etools datasets now as that is what I do, reguardless of those that think that etools never gets updated.

 

[kingpaul]

I can't for the life of me see the sharing of datasets as a crime. If I buy a WotC book, I technically have the right to produce my own dataset for PCGen, DM Genie, eTools or whatever else I like, do I not?

Yes, *you* have the right to create a dataset for *your* self.

So, what if I met someone on the internet who happened to also own the book, and already had done the data entering for themselves? What is so wrong about sharing it?

Because you are then distributing someone else's IP. CMP, as a licensee of WotC, has permission to distribute said IP.

I disagree with the book/movie analogy. If I owned the book, and downloaded the movie off of the internet then that would be stealing.

So, you recognize that the movie, being a different medium than the book, is not the same as the book. Why then is a dataset, which is a different medium than the book, the same as the book?

But, if I owned the book, and I made my own movie based on the book, and showed it only to people who also owned the book, and I was not looking to make a single penny off of this, then I see no theft.

Depends upon the book. Some books are out in public domain. Others are still IP of the author/estate.

Did any of you download and watch that fan-made Batman movie "Dead End"? Pretty good, wasn't it? I liken it to that.

I've actually never heard of it until just now.

The only thing "wrong" is that companies are seeing opportunity to make extra money and are upset when people find clever ways around it instead. And in my eyes, these people are doing nothing immoral.

Once again, we are talking about the distribution of IP. If you have permission from the IP owner to distribute the IP, then bully for you. However, CMP does charge for their datasets because a) they have a licensing fee for their license, b) they pay people to create the dataset and need to recoup that cost and c) as a company, wish to make a profit.

 

[herald]

I swore I'd never come back to these forums again. Some things never change but you should never let someone who distorts the facts get away with it.

Flat out fact copywrite infringment is illegal, and used in the manner of sharing Data Sets consitutes a form of theft. This is not an opinion it's a fact. I could care less for anyone who says anthing differant. I have consulted with criminal lawyers as well as corporate lawyers who specialize in intellectual property law. It doesn't matter if you give it away or charge .01$.

The folks over at CMP have done a fine job, they are very professional about reponding to requests and bug reports. The have added quite abit of functionality to the program. Most of all, they are friendly and supportive. Etools is worth it.

If you don't want to buy eTools, try PC-Gen.

 

[Rapier]

I too use ETools and have nothing but praise for the work that CMP has done to it. It's not their fault that Fluid made such a mess of it to start with. I can't wait to see CMP's new product when it comes out

As far as datasets being outrageously priced, as stated before, no single dataset is over $7.50. Can you buy the book for that??? And, considering that the bundles are usually discounted, they work out to a pretty good deal. Noone ever said that you have to buy the book to buy the dataset (altho it would be easier to look up details).

And as far as the 'sharing' of user-input data, no matter how you look at it, youare sharing copyrighted material (the original data from the book) so it's illegal any way you look at it.

That seems to be the case with the younger generations anymore... 1) everyone's doing it so it must be alright, and 2) it's only illegal if you get caught (I've heard this from high-school students in the past couple of years.

Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right... it's still illegal.

 

[sfgiants]

Thanks for all the good advice. I bought e-tools today and while I am getting used to it, I can see that it will speed me up quite a bit

 

[msd]

Maybe a little less sarcasm is in order...I'm not disagreeing with your points, but the delivery seems a little over the top.

Maybe you need to let the PR department answer some of these question and step to the side.

Just my opinion.

...and I feel the need to address these statement with facts, since DonTadow is in very short supply of them it seems.

well.. that suggestion wouldn't be polite, and I wouldn't want to upset Eric's Grandmother... I'll just say you need to see a doctor about having that Cranial-Rectal fission surgery sometime soon.

I know now why I don't buy your products...

 

[rlphay]

Thanks for all the good advice. I bought e-tools today and while I am getting used to it, I can see that it will speed me up quite a bit

And if you have any problems with it just post those on the CMP forum and we will be more then happy to help you out.

Welcome to the etools family.

 

[DonTadow]

I swore I'd never come back to these forums again. Some things never change but you should never let someone who distorts the facts get away with it.

Flat out fact copywrite infringment is illegal, and used in the manner of sharing Data Sets consitutes a form of theft. This is not an opinion it's a fact. I could care less for anyone who says anthing differant. I have consulted with criminal lawyers as well as corporate lawyers who specialize in intellectual property law. It doesn't matter if you give it away or charge .01$.

The folks over at CMP have done a fine job, they are very professional about reponding to requests and bug reports. The have added quite abit of functionality to the program. Most of all, they are friendly and supportive. Etools is worth it.

If you don't want to buy eTools, try PC-Gen.

And for every one criminal lawyer who tells you one thing, theres another (and I A. work with lawyers, B have to deal with them on a daily basis for 8 yearss) who can prove the opposite. IN this world its all about who has more money. Either way I could care less. I'm not porting the pdf's of products through the net. I support programs whom have rich communities whom don't overcharge on the product. I support programs where I can go to joe blow and ask what he's doing on his script and share what i'm doing on mine. Thats what my advice was. DMgenie, and for that matter roleplaying master, are just better programs, cheaper and supported heavily by their communities. They just don't have big brother wotc backing them which is why I scoffed at pc-gen's recent win at the ennies. If you think its right for anyone to tell you what you can or can't do with properity you've bought knock yourself's out I don't get into the file sharing debate. But when I transfer the equivelent of cliffnotes of a book two people own for a program we both have and you advocate breaking down the door there's something morrally worng with that.

The law is very mirky and the Supreme court isn't even touching it yet. (a solid law would make intelectual properity do things that doesnt sound right with physical properity IE: i can let my brother borrow my shirt, can't let my brother borrow a cd. )

By the way, I do own e-tools, I said that from the beginning and I do have mosto f the datapacks from last year. A friend has actually offered a billion times to send me this year's databpack but, taking away how i personally feel about the company, its just not as good as the competition right now. I'm not a big wotc fan, but they have come out with some good material that I am happy to purchase. If I like something and its worth it, i'll buy it.

MY personal feelings were decided a few years ago, and it was not something that just came. It was me, following and thinking codemonkey was pretty gutsy and risky with pcgen and then seeing it shut down. Ok . But to see you guys turn complete turncoats into this fabricated argument wotc has pushed for years because of their high priced lawyers was really upseting. I stopped using pcgen (got tired of downloading the latest java packages anyway) and looked elsewhere. And I believe thats when I found dmgenie and roleplaying master and a couple others. Big communities on other web services which rocked and the company didn't seem to be effected by the big brother mentality.

Someone keeps saying, what is time worth. If i say my time is worth free, if i'm in this soley so that others won't have to code then I'll do it. That's a community. Is it worth making a program and then complicating it so much that only you can come up with the good stuff and sell it for 33% of what the material iti s based off of costs?

Its a personal decision. For me no.