Is Eberron a dead world yet?

[shilsen]

...or the gnomes (my favorite - I suggest reading through "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or other anti-semitic propaganda and replacing every mention of "Jew" with "gnome" to get you in the right mood).

I essentially agree with everything else you posted above, Jürgen, but I have to say, this is just ... freaking ... brilliant

 

[rounser]

So why does nobody than PCs and high-level NPCs ever seem to use them?

I was going to comment on this above as a difference, but on thinking it through I'm not sure it matters. So long as the heroes and the villains get to the location via some secret gate, it doesn't really matter whether the commoners don't have access to the jungle nearby the Lost Tomb of Zarad-Thoon. In fact, I think it's probably better that they don't, because if Zarad-Thoon is on everyone's itinerary then it's probably not so mysterious and forbidden anymore.

What's wrong with these abstractions? Why shouldn't the heroes combine swords and wands with magic trains and airships? What in the D&D Core rules says that these things do not fit together?

For the same reason why machine guns and Boeing 727s don't appear on the equipment lists in the PHB, maybe. Maybe wikipedia can help explain the concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronism
I don't think anachronisms as such are much of a problem to accept if they're consistently and pervasively drawing from more than one tech level, except that in Eberron the exceptions are highly selective, and therefore IMO incongruous.

If everything in Eberron was right up there with the dual tech levels, with dwarven steamrollers, halfling biplanes, black powder weaponry as common as swords etc. then I think that would have been a much better way to handle it. But they couldn't because the setting had to cleave to generic D&D assumptions as well in order to meet WOTC needs. As it is, because they've gone "implied setting tech level, but with the odd incongruous quirk" the anachronisms that are there stick out like sore thumbs IMO.

 

[Mr Samedi]

For the same reason why machine guns and Boeing 727s don't appear on the equipment lists in the PHB, maybe. Maybe wikipedia can help explain the concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronism
I don't think anachronisms as such are much of a problem to accept if they're consistently and pervasively drawing from more than one tech level, except that in Eberron the exceptions are highly selective, and therefore IMO incongruous.

If everyone in Eberron was right up there with the dual tech levels, with dwarven steamrollers, halfling biplanes, black powder weaponry as common as swords etc. like in Arcanum, I think that would have been a much better way to handle it. But they couldn't because the setting had to cleave to generic D&D assumptions as well in order to meet WOTC needs. As it is, because they've gone "implied setting tech level, but with the odd incongruous quirk" the anachronisms that are there stick out like sore thumbs IMO.

Except you've completely missed the point. It's not like Eberron uses steam power or progresses like the real world, because the designers sat down and thought "you know, what would happen if instead of sitting in their big ivory towers, wizards would try to make their magic accessible to the public to make money?"

Take a look at FR. Gond saying to his worshippers "Here, this is called gunpowder, you can blow stuff up with it", now that's an anachronism. They just plonk it into the setting with no reason other than "the gods said so"

But a bunch of mages sitting around thinking, "You know, these stones when enchanted this way attract each other. This could be really great for transport if we found some way to put them in a line and smack a great big ornate platform, thus making us instant millionaires." is the sophistication of magic.

Why doesn't Eberron have gunpowder? Why would you when a mage can, with a bit of work cook up a spell that's twice as devestating? Why look into steampower whne magic will do?

 

[rounser]

Except you've completely missed the point. It's not like Eberron uses steam power or progresses like the real world, because the designers sat down and thought "you know, what would happen if instead of sitting in their big ivory towers, wizards would try to make their magic accessible to the public to make money?"

They haven't even scratched the surface of what would happen as a result of this, which is what's so silly about pretending that this is the case. The impact of a single low level spell such as invisibility, let alone a PHB worth of magic would turn society upside down into something alien to anything we could imagine. The hubris and naivety of suggesting that this is designed into the setting is staggering to me.

Take a look at FR. Gond saying to his worshippers "Here, this is called gunpowder, you can blow stuff up with it", now that's an anachronism. They just plonk it into the setting with no reason other than "the gods said so"

Gygax and Greenwood had arguments on the topic of gunpowder in D&D in Dragon magazine, I gather. I do know that many FR DMs downplay it's existence, and most would agree that it's not very important in making FR, FR.

But a bunch of mages sitting around thinking, "You know, these stones when enchanted this way attract each other. This could be really great for transport if we found some way to put them in a line and smack a great big ornate platform, thus making us instant millionaires." is the sophistication of magic.

Because it's the thin end of a huge wedge. From there, magic machine guns, magic jet fighters, magic ipods and magic cat scans aren't far behind. Most setting designs are clever enough not to go there and sweep the entire issue underneath the carpet, because magic and logic don't mix - except with explosive results for whatever genre you're trying to convey. Maybe you're not trying to convey a genre if you're playing Eberron, but I doubt it.

Why do we have flying magic carpets and not flying magic stealth fighters in the DMG? Surely the magic could make the latter go, cloak it and arm it with magic missiles even? Genre convention. You can break that, sure, and maybe you and your players don't ask yourselves "If we can have magic trains, why don't magic ride-on lawnmowers and magic aircraft carriers also exist"? Most settings don't go there, but to have the temerity to suggest that Eberron "makes sense" in terms of the impact of magic is ludicrous. The scientific applications of D&D magic are endless, such that your example above sticks out as a mere drop of water from a crack in suspension of disbelief that has Niagara Falls behind it. Best not to make a crack in that wall in the first place, or at least not draw conspicuous attention to it when you occasionally do it.

 

[Mr Samedi]

They haven't even scratched the surface of what would happen as a result of this, which is what's so silly about pretending that this is the case. The impact of a single low level spell such as invisibility, let alone a PHB worth of magic would turn society upside down into something alien to anything we could imagine. The hubris and naivety of suggesting that this is designed into the setting is staggering to me.

Except the fact that Eberron still doesn't have that many mages that magic could have an impact with spells that aren't easily commercialised. It may have a higher percentage than most worlds, but not so much that every Tom, Dick and Harry has access to spells. Not to mention that most citizerns or common thugs cannot afford the prices for a lot of spells.

Even when someone can cats it, Magic is expected enough that there are countermeasures. A rogue using invisibility will be countered by a member of the watch with see invisibility.

Because it's the thin end of a huge wedge. From there, magic machine guns

You mean wands of magic missle? Covered.
,

magic jet fighters,

You mean airships? Covered.

magic ipods

A sufficeintly wealthy noble could probably afford to get something like that.

Most setting designs are clever enough not to go there and sweep the entire issue underneath the carpet, because magic and logic don't mix - except with explosive results for whatever genre you're trying to convey. Maybe you're not trying to convey a genre if you're playing Eberron, but I doubt it.

Why do we have flying magic carpets and not flying magic stealth fighters in the DMG? Surely the magic could make the latter go, cloak it and arm it with magic missiles even? Genre convention. You can break that, sure, and maybe you and your players don't ask yourselves "If we can have magic X, why don't magic Y and Z also exist"? Most settings don't go there, but to have the temerity to suggest that Eberron "makes sense" in terms of the impact of magic is ludicrous. The scientific applications of D&D magic are endless, such that your example above sticks out as a mere drop of water from a crack in suspension of disbelief that has Niagara Falls behind it. Best not to make a crack in that wall in the first place, or at least not draw conspicuous attention to it when you occasionally do it.

You act as if Eberron, or any campaign setting has a wizard down every street corner, constantly screwing things up with their magic. Other campign settings deal with it with wizards of suffiecient skill to even attempt most of the equivalents of our world beign isolationist and sitting in big towers trying to take over the world.

There are still only so many spellcasters in Eberron as that the only way they make themselves known is through big civic undertakings. Sure, a magewright probably could churn out the magic equivalent of an ipod if he wanted to, but would it be as profitable as having the city pay him to light up the streets with everburning torches?

Heck, if you really want magic equivalents of modern day stuff, use the items from Dragon 327's Bazaar of the Bizzare, featuring magic PDAs (slate folios), video phones (mirrors of communication) and Memory crystals (cameras).

 

[shilsen]

Everyone defending Eberron: Rounser is never going to agree with you, please stop arguing with him, and get on with talking about Eberron rather than defending it.

Listen to the smart man, people. I made the mistake of arguing with rounser on this thread, forgetting that I've seen this happen, over and over, ad infinitum, in other threads about Eberron. Never again. Let the nice man dislike Eberron, don't respond to him, and let's focus on discussing the setting.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I essentially agree with everything else you posted above, Jürgen, but I have to say, this is just ... freaking ... brilliant

I always say that you can never have enough bigots in a campaign setting. After all, then you have people that the PCs can slaughter without having to feel guilty about it...

But seriously, the gnomes just scream out as the targets for this kind of bigotry. The Triumvirate is damn scary to anyone who has heard about it, and gnomes have a nasty tendency to gather all sorts of inconvenient information about just about everyone. And just why was Zilargo allowed to secede from Breland without any outcry?

I can see all too well a human agitator (funny-looking mustache optional) holding speeches in the lower- and middle-class human neighborhoods of Sharn that begin with "Trust not the gnome..."

 

[Anti-Sean]

I can see all too well a human agitator (funny-looking mustache optional) holding speeches in the lower- and middle-class human neighborhoods of Sharn that begin with "Trust not the gnome..."

I don't think he'd be preaching for very long before he just 'disappears'.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I don't think he'd be preaching for very long before he just 'disappears'.

So now you have "martyrs for the cause"! Even better...

 

[Vocenoctum]

They haven't even scratched the surface of what would happen as a result of this, which is what's so silly about pretending that this is the case. The impact of a single low level spell such as invisibility, let alone a PHB worth of magic would turn society upside down into something alien to anything we could imagine. The hubris and naivety of suggesting that this is designed into the setting is staggering to me.

Dragonmarked houses have certain focuses and abilities related to those focuses. The house with such things as Invibisility focuses more purely on spying and espionage, as befits that power. The House with the Mark of Passage focuses on transportation. They each focus on what will make them the most long term profit.

FR has high level mages that muddle everywhere, Eberron does not. The economy of the Houses is more focused and less "whatever Elminster wants".