Is everyone in Eberron white?
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Dogbrain said:
That's a pretty good effort. I'm willing to bet the artists themselves are white, and most people have difficulty getting the facial features of different ethnic groups right.
Hell, most people you talk to don't even realize that there are differences in facial features between different racial groups, except the really obvious, stereotypical ones.
Incenjucar
Legend
Ethnicity tends to be hard to do properly in fantasy, and especially in art these days.
In regards to fantasy, it takes some effort to explain the migratory habits of a culture to allow for realistic ethnic diversity, without setting up a really nasty situation (Especially since so many cultures enslaved each other). With fantasy races, the primary non-evil ones are white, largely because Tolkein was trying to write a European mythology. Finally, there tends to be a habit amoungst writers to focus on their own culture, or a culture they're fascinated with, or one that fits the medium. Someone writing about a desert setting will usually have faux-Arabs. Someone writing about samurai are going to have faux-Asians. (In fact, my favorite comic book is written by an 'African-American', but most of his characters are white, because he's basing much of it on D&D and Indiana Jones and Anime) Someone writing basic fantasy will usually assume "Europe". Now, me, personally, I'm busy making up my own ethnicities, like the jungle dwellers who're all but bleach white because they cover their skin and tend to be nocturnal, who live near a people that have very dark skin, because they do almost everything in daylight, and tend to go bare-skinned because of the heat (though they do wars at night, in full armor, by torch light). My fantasy cultures have a different method of variety, as one type is semi-reptilian, and has any variety of skin patterns and hues, another kind is usually a middling tan, with a few exceptions, but their hair/feathers come in great variety. Another race is semi-insectoid, so they have chitin differences.
As for art, you have the fact that they're usually trying to draw based on the fantasy sources available, as above shows, and, an interesting problem, these days you're not supposed to know much about differences between 'races'. I, for instance, was raised in a heavily liberal area (A tourist-filled coastal city), so I can't so much as tell a Scott from an Irishman, or a Polish person from a Swede or a Norwegian. I can just -barely- guess if someone is Japanese or Chinese or Malaysian, but only if I have those few options. If they're Korean, Hmong, Vietnamese, Laosian, Thai, Tibetan, or any of the rest, I have no bloody idea. And since almost any racial group will get effing ticked at you for confusing them with another, I can't safely do any trial by error. This is the same kind of thing many artists have to worry about unless they're in a more laid-back area.
In regards to fantasy, it takes some effort to explain the migratory habits of a culture to allow for realistic ethnic diversity, without setting up a really nasty situation (Especially since so many cultures enslaved each other). With fantasy races, the primary non-evil ones are white, largely because Tolkein was trying to write a European mythology. Finally, there tends to be a habit amoungst writers to focus on their own culture, or a culture they're fascinated with, or one that fits the medium. Someone writing about a desert setting will usually have faux-Arabs. Someone writing about samurai are going to have faux-Asians. (In fact, my favorite comic book is written by an 'African-American', but most of his characters are white, because he's basing much of it on D&D and Indiana Jones and Anime) Someone writing basic fantasy will usually assume "Europe". Now, me, personally, I'm busy making up my own ethnicities, like the jungle dwellers who're all but bleach white because they cover their skin and tend to be nocturnal, who live near a people that have very dark skin, because they do almost everything in daylight, and tend to go bare-skinned because of the heat (though they do wars at night, in full armor, by torch light). My fantasy cultures have a different method of variety, as one type is semi-reptilian, and has any variety of skin patterns and hues, another kind is usually a middling tan, with a few exceptions, but their hair/feathers come in great variety. Another race is semi-insectoid, so they have chitin differences.
As for art, you have the fact that they're usually trying to draw based on the fantasy sources available, as above shows, and, an interesting problem, these days you're not supposed to know much about differences between 'races'. I, for instance, was raised in a heavily liberal area (A tourist-filled coastal city), so I can't so much as tell a Scott from an Irishman, or a Polish person from a Swede or a Norwegian. I can just -barely- guess if someone is Japanese or Chinese or Malaysian, but only if I have those few options. If they're Korean, Hmong, Vietnamese, Laosian, Thai, Tibetan, or any of the rest, I have no bloody idea. And since almost any racial group will get effing ticked at you for confusing them with another, I can't safely do any trial by error. This is the same kind of thing many artists have to worry about unless they're in a more laid-back area.
Incenjucar
Legend
Diversity=increased sales+better reputation.
Aries_Omega
Explorer
Races In Fantasy
I often wondered why most fantasy games were of fantasy Europe. Do people in non-european countries play fantasy games set in something more familar with. For example gamers in Japan. Do they what we in America would call "Oriental Adventures" or "Legends of the Five Rings" setting? Do Europeans...who grew up with stories of goblins, redcaps, nymphs and so forth look at AD&D and say "my...they took that idea to far....goblins are nothing like that."
I found the answer to be that most fantasy writters were Caucasian and used old European legends as their basis. Is this bad? In my opinon...no. Just how they write. I myself am White/Latino mix and never really fit into either group of people most of my life. I grew up in a part of the US where there are many Mexicans. My father is not Mexican....Latino...not Mexican. So while I was half Latino...I did not fit in with the native Spanish speaking population. I think this is the reason why I find myself making the main character in my story a half elf. Not your normal human/high elf (Tanis Half Elven and just about every half elf in fiction) but human/wild elf combos.
In defense of game designers there are some really good non-European fantasy settings. Most all of us know Oriental Adventures and Legends of the Five Rings. Most Asian gamers I know have been told of old folk stories that tell of the monsters in those games and agree with me in that...yes...they are well writen with some elements of truth to them but they are what they are. Good fantasy gaming material. Another setting that a friend of mine that went to Howard showed me and loves is the Nyambe setting for Africa. For those of us gaming in the 2E system TSR did try to do a good Mezo-American setting once (Maztica) and Middle Eastern Setting (Al-Qaim...I think is the spelling). The online support to convert to d20 is great and I am impressed with it. Hopefully WOTC or some other company will pick up the title and publish material for it.
Thats all I got with only one cup of coffee so far
Aries
I often wondered why most fantasy games were of fantasy Europe. Do people in non-european countries play fantasy games set in something more familar with. For example gamers in Japan. Do they what we in America would call "Oriental Adventures" or "Legends of the Five Rings" setting? Do Europeans...who grew up with stories of goblins, redcaps, nymphs and so forth look at AD&D and say "my...they took that idea to far....goblins are nothing like that."
I found the answer to be that most fantasy writters were Caucasian and used old European legends as their basis. Is this bad? In my opinon...no. Just how they write. I myself am White/Latino mix and never really fit into either group of people most of my life. I grew up in a part of the US where there are many Mexicans. My father is not Mexican....Latino...not Mexican. So while I was half Latino...I did not fit in with the native Spanish speaking population. I think this is the reason why I find myself making the main character in my story a half elf. Not your normal human/high elf (Tanis Half Elven and just about every half elf in fiction) but human/wild elf combos.
In defense of game designers there are some really good non-European fantasy settings. Most all of us know Oriental Adventures and Legends of the Five Rings. Most Asian gamers I know have been told of old folk stories that tell of the monsters in those games and agree with me in that...yes...they are well writen with some elements of truth to them but they are what they are. Good fantasy gaming material. Another setting that a friend of mine that went to Howard showed me and loves is the Nyambe setting for Africa. For those of us gaming in the 2E system TSR did try to do a good Mezo-American setting once (Maztica) and Middle Eastern Setting (Al-Qaim...I think is the spelling). The online support to convert to d20 is great and I am impressed with it. Hopefully WOTC or some other company will pick up the title and publish material for it.
Thats all I got with only one cup of coffee so far
Aries
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
Most fantasy - even Tolkien, to a large extent - relies upon a simplified version of real-world mythology. Even Tolkien, with his Silmarillion, used a shallow take on historical folklore and myths as a foundation upon which to erect his own tale.
The Legend of the Five Rings setting uses a mishmash of historical Japanese eras, Asian religions (Shinto, Buddhism, et cetera), and various other bits and pieces of folklore and history - but what most characterises Rokugan is the setting-specific elements which were built upon these inspirations. Most of the setting detail is original, in presentation if not in content. In Rokugan it's more important, for instance, that the original seven Great Clans were founded by divine kami from Heaven than that the concepts of clan, daimyo, and so on are loosely drawn from Japanese history.
My meaning may be confused by the late hour, but in essence what I'm trying to communicate is that any fantasy setting, whether created for fiction or for gaming, is more about itself than it is about the historical or literary material which may have inspired it.
In general, this even applies to game settings (or literary universes) which are intended to replicate existing worlds. That's what makes historical games so difficult to write well, and why games inspired by fiction - even those literally intended as adaptations - often deviate in significant ways from the original. Unless you play a Lord of the Rings campaign as the Fellowship, for instance, the likelihood of any game capturing the same feel as the novels is very small - the Fellowship's quest happens once, and the individuals involved are special in (fairly) unique ways. It takes a very creative GM to run a story in that setting which can replicate even part of the magic of the original stories.
In a similar vein, the Extruded Fantasy Product that makes up the bulk of the doorstop fantasy novels available today is pretty terrible because it offers the reader only a shadow of the great stories it imitates - typically, to harp upon a theme, The Lord of the Rings (which I don't even like, personally, but I recognise the phenomenon of its imitation exists). Even the best stories written in imitation of Tolkien's work - or in reaction to it - don't offer the reader the same thing (which I think is a good thing no matter what your opinion of Tolkien). On the contrary - no matter the similarities, they are always essentially superficial, and the story succeeds or fails based on its own merits.
Now, all this longwinded blather comes back to Eberron thusly: For all the promotional chatter about Indiana Jones movies and postwar analogues in Khorvaire, what makes Eberron interesting (in theory, if not in practice for everyone) is the original elements. Lacking obvious analogues to postwar Europe beyond a general tone, the setting's story becomes about how Breland and Thrane and the other nations interact. In fact, at the risk of injecting postmodernism into this discussion, it becomes about how the countries and peoples of Khorvaire interact in each individual campaign, and that will be potentially ver different for each one.
In the matter of race, the same conditions prevail. The fact that the humans of Argonessen look vaguely similar to some real-world African peoples does not mean that they are Africans. If the people of Aundair are light-skinned and fair-haired, it doesn't make them Scandinavian (and, in fact, I can't find any indication in the book of what the various nationalities typically look like at all).
Even the artwork is just one reaction to the world - one interpretation. I agree that it's regrettable that there seems to be a surfeit of European-looking people (human or no; the adventurers on p. 43 all appear "white", except for the warforged), but what's in the books is only a small part of what the setting's really like, because that's determined anew in every single individual campaign.
Just like Tolkien took a simplified version of northern European mythology and built a memorable and creative world upon it, every group of players takes a campaign setting and makes their own version of it throughout their games.
Unless they're slavish canon-freaks, but those guys suck anyway.
The Legend of the Five Rings setting uses a mishmash of historical Japanese eras, Asian religions (Shinto, Buddhism, et cetera), and various other bits and pieces of folklore and history - but what most characterises Rokugan is the setting-specific elements which were built upon these inspirations. Most of the setting detail is original, in presentation if not in content. In Rokugan it's more important, for instance, that the original seven Great Clans were founded by divine kami from Heaven than that the concepts of clan, daimyo, and so on are loosely drawn from Japanese history.
My meaning may be confused by the late hour, but in essence what I'm trying to communicate is that any fantasy setting, whether created for fiction or for gaming, is more about itself than it is about the historical or literary material which may have inspired it.
In general, this even applies to game settings (or literary universes) which are intended to replicate existing worlds. That's what makes historical games so difficult to write well, and why games inspired by fiction - even those literally intended as adaptations - often deviate in significant ways from the original. Unless you play a Lord of the Rings campaign as the Fellowship, for instance, the likelihood of any game capturing the same feel as the novels is very small - the Fellowship's quest happens once, and the individuals involved are special in (fairly) unique ways. It takes a very creative GM to run a story in that setting which can replicate even part of the magic of the original stories.
In a similar vein, the Extruded Fantasy Product that makes up the bulk of the doorstop fantasy novels available today is pretty terrible because it offers the reader only a shadow of the great stories it imitates - typically, to harp upon a theme, The Lord of the Rings (which I don't even like, personally, but I recognise the phenomenon of its imitation exists). Even the best stories written in imitation of Tolkien's work - or in reaction to it - don't offer the reader the same thing (which I think is a good thing no matter what your opinion of Tolkien). On the contrary - no matter the similarities, they are always essentially superficial, and the story succeeds or fails based on its own merits.
Now, all this longwinded blather comes back to Eberron thusly: For all the promotional chatter about Indiana Jones movies and postwar analogues in Khorvaire, what makes Eberron interesting (in theory, if not in practice for everyone) is the original elements. Lacking obvious analogues to postwar Europe beyond a general tone, the setting's story becomes about how Breland and Thrane and the other nations interact. In fact, at the risk of injecting postmodernism into this discussion, it becomes about how the countries and peoples of Khorvaire interact in each individual campaign, and that will be potentially ver different for each one.
In the matter of race, the same conditions prevail. The fact that the humans of Argonessen look vaguely similar to some real-world African peoples does not mean that they are Africans. If the people of Aundair are light-skinned and fair-haired, it doesn't make them Scandinavian (and, in fact, I can't find any indication in the book of what the various nationalities typically look like at all).
Even the artwork is just one reaction to the world - one interpretation. I agree that it's regrettable that there seems to be a surfeit of European-looking people (human or no; the adventurers on p. 43 all appear "white", except for the warforged), but what's in the books is only a small part of what the setting's really like, because that's determined anew in every single individual campaign.
Just like Tolkien took a simplified version of northern European mythology and built a memorable and creative world upon it, every group of players takes a campaign setting and makes their own version of it throughout their games.
Unless they're slavish canon-freaks, but those guys suck anyway.
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