D&D 5E Is going from MAD to SAD worth one feat slot?

[jmartkdr2]

Outside of Dex as a spellcasting ability, I don't think it'd break anything, at least compared to the existing shenanigans available with feats and multiclassing in play. I'm also not sure Con for spellcasting would be too much.

The only builds for which this is a must-have are gishes, and frankly I'd rather they take a feat than a multiclass dip to get the benefit. Feats are more of a cost, anyways.

 

[houser2112]

I mean, I can definitely see it for gishes, I'm not sure if other classes would bother. Why does a non-bladesinger wizard need to boost their weapon attack? Why would a barbarian bother to not use Strength? Why would a fighter?

You have a point with non-bladesinger wizards, but a barbarian's unarmored defense feature would make obviating strength without sacrificing damage output a great option.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

You have a point with non-bladesinger wizards, but a barbarian's unarmored defense feature would make obviating strength without sacrificing damage output a great option.

The feat wouldn't be terribly helpful to a barbarian as it only lets them make attacks with another stat. Their rage damage and reckless attack features still very specifically require "melee attacks using Strength" to function. It's why you don't see everyone rolling up dex-based barbarians already (or at least I don't).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I don’t get why you excluded Con. Con is just hp. Dex is way more important. I’d have excluded dex instead.

I’ve considered a version of this feat but for skill uses and saves. Something like, pick 3 skills and/or 1 save and you may use the chosen stat instead of the default.

but in 5e you can argue any stat for a given skill proficiency so it was never worth it to hammer out a balanced homebrew feat.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This would absolutely become the top-tier feat for any character that doesn't innately play perfectly to the stats it traditionally values. In particular, caster classes get an enormous boon from this, being able to layer in extra martial prowess if they desire it while also being able to set their casting to whichever stat they think is most interesting.

Consider it like this: a Bard is going to want good Cha, Dex, and Con, especially a Valor Bard. Valor Bard doesn't get its combat benefits until level 3 anyway, so the player is already playing with the expectation of waiting to actually get to do their stuff (unless the party starts at higher level, which the rules do advocate.....people are just really reluctant to DO it.) With this feat, a Bard can, in theory, completely ignore Charisma and instead focus purely on Dex/Con. This means that, at 4th level, the Bard almost certainly has additional HP from a higher Con mod, a better Dex save, a better to-hit modifier, and better AC. A single feat that provides scaling benefits to Con and Dex saves, HP, to-hit, AND AC? Yeah, that's a pretty dang powerful feat. And it only comes at the cost of being a little worse at Charisma skills, which the Bard is already amazing with anyway, so the slight drop is hardly a problem.

 

[Quartz]

Any thoughts on particular character concepts where this feat would be a no-brainer take at early levels? (

This is far too powerful, even if restricted to the mental stats. Rather than substituting a stat, how about substituting Proficiency Bonus? I've done this with my revised Fighter class. This actually works out better in the long run, granting +6 instead of +5 but is more moderate at low levels, allowing you to go from a -1 to a +2 or +3 rather than a +4 or even +5.

 

[Bolares]

Choose any one ability score, other than Constitution. You gain the following benefits:
-You can use this ability score in place of Strength and Dexterity when making weapon attacks.
-You can use this ability score in place of your spellcasting ability when making spell attacks and when calculating Spell Save DC.

This is VERY good for an Eldritch Knight. The one weakness of the class is that you have to sacrifice your spell effectivness to be a great fighter. Now there are no drawbacks, and you kind of can easilly lock an enemy forever with hold person and your 10th level feature, with a very high save DC

 

[Bolares]

The biggest issue for me is that it makes finesse weapons irrelevant and by extension muscles in on a rogues usp. It also makes spells like Shillelagh and several subclass abilities irrelevant too.

this is a great point. It will make some character choices very good, but make others moot. I don't think its good design for a feat to "make or break" charactes classes and subclasses like that.

 

[ECMO3]

It would only be one BB/GFB, not two (two attacks, but only one is a cantrip), unless there is some other shenanigan beyond bladesinging I'm not familiar with. And BB/GFB have anti-synergy with GWM, like any other damage increase without an increase in accuracy. But yea, full Dex bladesinger (only need Int for the AC boost while bladesinging) would be pretty beastly. Restrict it to Int for attacks, though, and I don't think it's too bad.

At 6th level:
attack: 2d6(7)+3dex+10 gwm = 20
cantrip: 2d6(7)+3+10+1d8fire(4.5) and 2d8(9) fire+3dex (second target)= 24.5 1st target, 12 2nd target

56.5DPR at 6th level without using spell slots, while also getting a third attack for 20DPR more as a bonus action every time you crit or drop an enemy.

That is compared to the current 6th level bladesinger that maxes dexterity and has a 16 int and does 33.5 (21.5/12) with no bonus action attack.

Intelligence only would not be much better. It would require another feat or a race to get medium armor, but you could still be rocking 57DPR by 8th level with an extra bonus action attack every time you crit or dropped an enemy. And it gets worse at higher levels because the intelligence stacks on the weapon damage, stacks again on the cantrip damage and can be used on spell saves.

Bladesinger is already a very powerful subclass and this would take them from MAD to SAD.

Those are the kind of builds I want to encourage!

Why even have strength as an ability if you can get everything you can get with strength from another stat? The ONLY thing at all strength would be good for is carrying capacity and grappling/shoving.

DIfferent groups, then. 14 Con is pretty much the standard, and 16/16 or 16/14 in main/secondary is also easily the most common distribution.

A lot of people here say that, so you are not unique. This is the real reason you are running around with a bunch of 8 intelligence and charisma fighters. If you invest in a character only to be good in combat - if you make him a ham-fisted bag of hps, he should not be good out of combat. I don't think you should fix this by letting them dump strength. I think you fix this by encouraging players to invest in other stats instead of Constitution.

If you make Constitution 10 instead of 14 you have 5 points to spend on other abilities and a much more playable character.

Your experience is not unique, but I think Constitution is overrated by many on this board. At 9th level a constitution 2 points higher means you will survive a whopping one more hit from a CR1 Orc than you would otherwise survive.

I mean, I can definitely see it for gishes, I'm not sure if other classes would bother. Why does a non-bladesinger wizard need to boost their weapon attack? Why would a barbarian bother to not use Strength? Why would a fighter?

There is simply no reason for a fighter to invest in strength. Why would a fighter bother to use strength when they could dump it and instead attack with a stat that is FAR better both for saves and for skills?

A fighter with custom lineage could start with a 17 wisdom enabling +3 to hit/damage at 1st level with a greatsword. He would also have a +3 wisdom save, a passive perception of 15, and a +3 in the 4 other wisdom-based skills (without proficiency) while still doing the most damage and having as many hps as any other fighter build at this level. Bump wisdom to 18 at 4th level with a half-feat like Fey touched, skill expert or resilient and it makes him even better at wisdom saves, better at 5+ different skills and boosts hit/damage again. Further aside from this he could go EK and use wisdom instead of intelligence for casting purposes!

With a Barbarian it would depend on if you allow rage damage and reckless attack on a wisdom-based attack. If you do he is going to dump strength too for a different ability (most likely wisdom). If you don't, no one who understands numbers will play a Barbarian when there are better classes available (virtually all of them).

 

[TwoSix]

At 6th level:
attack: 2d6(7)+3dex+10 gwm = 20
cantrip: 2d6(7)+3+10+1d8fire(4.5) and 2d8(9) fire+3dex (second target)= 24.5 1st target, 12 2nd target

56.5DPR at 6th level without using spell slots, while also getting a third attack for 20DPR more as a bonus action every time you crit or drop an enemy.

Penalty on the play! If you're not factoring in hit rate, you can't do any sort of any real DPR comparisons with GWM or SS.

Now, obviously opening non-Str stats for GWM is nice, but it's not novel; hexblade and battle smith already allow this. The point of the query I asked is a feat enough of a cost to allow it.

Why even have strength as an ability if you can get everything you can get with strength from another stat? The ONLY thing at all strength would be good for is carrying capacity and grappling/shoving.

But it costs a feat. A feat is a big deal! You're going to be behind a +1 to hit and damage until level 8 at the earliest, or you're going to spend your level 1 Human/CO feat instead of grabbing a big feat like GWM or Lucky or PAM. All to make a different stat slightly higher. Not to mention you still need decent Str or Dex for your armor.

A lot of people here say that, so you are not unique. This is the real reason you are running around with a bunch of 8 intelligence and charisma fighters. If you invest in a character only to be good in combat - if you make him a ham-fisted bag of hps, he should not be good out of combat. I don't think you should fix this by letting them dump strength. I think you fix this by encouraging players to invest in other stats instead of Constitution.

I'm not really worried about this for my group. I'm just curious what people think the theoretical cost should be to make a character SAD. Most people seem to think a level 1 hexblade is too cheap a cost, so I'm trying to figure out the general consensus as to the right price.