D&D 5E Is going from MAD to SAD worth one feat slot?

[TwoSix]

Assume the following feat is present in the game:

Choose any one ability score, other than Constitution. You gain the following benefits:
-You can use this ability score in place of Strength and Dexterity when making weapon attacks.
-You can use this ability score in place of your spellcasting ability when making spell attacks and when calculating Spell Save DC.

Ignoring any possible flavor issues for a second, does this feat seem obviously overpowered? My gut feeling was yes, but when I thought about it a little more I couldn't find any builds where it was obviously too strong. Assuming point buy, it's pretty general build logic to get 16s in your attack and spell casting stats for most "MAD" builds, and a 14 in Con. So becoming SAD is really only giving you a +2 in either your weapon attacks or your spellcasting, and letting you put a 16 in Con instead. And, you have to delay actually getting up to 20 in your new main stat for 4 levels because of the feat cost.

Any thoughts on particular character concepts where this feat would be a no-brainer take at early levels? (I'm not too worried about feats that are only good at level 12 or 16.) Again, try to ignore the flavor issues, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of stat switching to begin with.

 

[ReshiIRE]

And, you have to delay actually getting up to 20 in your new main stat for 4 levels because of the feat cost.

Unless you're playing a Variant Human. Now this is just how you work from level 1.

I can't come up with a great build that would demonstrate why this would break a lot of things (though I think you are underestimating how much a +2 matters), but I could imagine anything that can now use Dexterity as their spell-casting modifier is going to be really strong in combat.

 

[Stalker0]

Probably the strongest version of this is for a wizard now going dex instead of int.

1) gains more AC for free
2) more initiative (always useful but it’s always really useful to have spellcasters go first)
3) gain a much stronger save (dex saves are much more common than int saves)

So that’s what I would assess power wise.

 

[TwoSix]

Unless you're playing a Variant Human. Now this is just how you work from level 1.

I can't come up with a great build that would demonstrate why this would break a lot of things (though I think you are underestimating how much a +2 matters), but I could imagine anything that can now use Dexterity as their spell-casting modifier is going to be really strong in combat.

True, but even at level 1, you're giving up either a starting 18 (assuming Custom Lineage and a half-feat) or one of the power feats that you could have taken at level 1 (like PAM or SS).

I'm not saying this isn't a strong feat, it definitely is. I'm just wondering if people think it crosses into "too strong" territory (which admittedly will vary based on personal tolerance.)

 

[TheSword]

Assume the following feat is present in the game:

Choose any one ability score, other than Constitution. You gain the following benefits:
-You can use this ability score in place of Strength and Dexterity when making weapon attacks.
-You can use this ability score in place of your spellcasting ability when making spell attacks and when calculating Spell Save DC.

Ignoring any possible flavor issues for a second, does this feat seem obviously overpowered? My gut feeling was yes, but when I thought about it a little more I couldn't find any builds where it was obviously too strong. Assuming point buy, it's pretty general build logic to get 16s in your attack and spell casting stats for most "MAD" builds, and a 14 in Con. So becoming SAD is really only giving you a +2 in either your weapon attacks or your spellcasting, and letting you put a 16 in Con instead. And, you have to delay actually getting up to 20 in your new main stat for 4 levels because of the feat cost.

Any thoughts on particular character concepts where this feat would be a no-brainer take at early levels? (I'm not too worried about feats that are only good at level 12 or 16.) Again, try to ignore the flavor issues, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of stat switching to begin with.

I think the reality is, it’s very good at early levels where every ability counts, and becomes progressively less powerful as you reach higher levels 8, 12 etc and stat bonuses matter less than scores.

The biggest issue for me is that it makes finesse weapons irrelevant and by extension muscles in on a rogues usp. It also makes spells like Shillelagh and several subclass abilities irrelevant too.

I’d be wary of it. If you really like have a magic weapon that lets you do the same thing but you can control it.

 

[TwoSix]

I think the reality is, it’s very good at early levels where every ability counts, and becomes progressively less powerful as you reach higher levels 8, 12 etc and stat bonuses matter less than scores.

The biggest issue for me is that it makes finesse weapons irrelevant and by extension muscles in on a rogues usp. It also makes spells like Shillelagh and several subclass abilities irrelevant too.

I’d be wary of it. If you really like have a magic weapon that lets you do the same thing but you can control it.

That's interesting, I tend to view it as stronger at later levels because the feat cost is keeping you from boosting your main stat during earlier levels; having only one stat that you need to boost is the best reason to be SAD in the first place!

I'm not sure I understand the argument about finesse weapons, can you elaborate? Rogues would still need to use finesse weapons for sneak attack, other classes might bypass finesse weapons by spending the feat, but I guess I don't see that as a particularly problematic case. Getting more people to use longswords and battleaxes over "yet another rapier user" feels like a win to me.

I'm not sure I agree with the "magic subclass features irrelevant" argument, a feat is almost certainly a higher cost than a spell choice or a low-level class feature, and if you get the feature, you don't need the feat. But I'd be interested in a counter-argument.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Assume the following feat is present in the game:

Choose any one ability score, other than Constitution. You gain the following benefits:
-You can use this ability score in place of Strength and Dexterity when making weapon attacks.
-You can use this ability score in place of your spellcasting ability when making spell attacks and when calculating Spell Save DC.

Ignoring any possible flavor issues for a second, does this feat seem obviously overpowered? My gut feeling was yes, but when I thought about it a little more I couldn't find any builds where it was obviously too strong. Assuming point buy, it's pretty general build logic to get 16s in your attack and spell casting stats for most "MAD" builds, and a 14 in Con. So becoming SAD is really only giving you a +2 in either your weapon attacks or your spellcasting, and letting you put a 16 in Con instead. And, you have to delay actually getting up to 20 in your new main stat for 4 levels because of the feat cost.

Any thoughts on particular character concepts where this feat would be a no-brainer take at early levels? (I'm not too worried about feats that are only good at level 12 or 16.) Again, try to ignore the flavor issues, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of stat switching to begin with.

I don't think it does what you want it to. Dexterity is the S-tier stat not just because it affects your to hit and damage rolls, but it also controls your AC, your initiative, one of your most important saving throws, and a wide array of skills. This means that its main practical function would appear to be to enable dex-based casters with good AC, good initiative, and good spell saving throws, and probably a lot of sneakiness.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't think it does what you want it to. Dexterity is the S-tier stat not just because it affects your to hit and damage rolls, but it also controls your AC, your initiative, one of your most important saving throws, and a wide array of skills. This means that its main practical function would appear to be to enable dex-based casters with good AC, good initiative, and good spell saving throws, and probably a lot of sneakiness.

Fair. I'm thinking restricting it to the 3 mental stats might make more sense.

 

[ECMO3]

Assume the following feat is present in the game:

Choose any one ability score, other than Constitution. You gain the following benefits:
-You can use this ability score in place of Strength and Dexterity when making weapon attacks.
-You can use this ability score in place of your spellcasting ability when making spell attacks and when calculating Spell Save DC.

As written it is too strong, if you make a prerequisite that you need a 12 in every stat to take the feat, it would then be more reasonable but still powerful.

As written, this would make numerous builds OP. Moreover it would completely invalidate strength. Dexterity builds are already better than strength builds, now I can have a dex build that gets a +5 with a heavy weapon at 4th level. It also would nerf most races except for custom lineage and v. human. Those builds could get this feat at 1st level and never need the other stat. Then follow on with more feats and ASIs as per normal.

A few builds that would be OP:
High dexterity Dwarven bladesinger using booming blade or green flame blade twice with GWM for 50+DPR as a wizard while using no spells and having a +4 to spell casting and a bonus action still available every turn.

High Wisdom fighter with GWM and, a passive perception of 17 and a 16 con at 5th level while dumping str and dex.

High charisma Paladin who dumps strength

Assuming point buy, it's pretty general build logic to get 16s in your attack and spell casting stats for most "MAD" builds, and a 14 in Con.

I would disagree with this logic, and have not seen it often in actual play due to what it does to your skills. With most races two 16s and a 14 also means two 10s and an 8. Most non-martials I have seen built in games I play do not get a 16 in their attack stat (wizards excepted) and most martials, other than Paladins do not start with a 16 in their casting stat - usually it is a 15 and is boosted through a half-feat. No one other than Barbarians universally starts with a 14 Con in the games I play generally. Sometimes other martials start with a 14 con too, but I would say it is less than 50% of them even.

So becoming SAD is really only giving you a +2 in either your weapon attacks or your spellcasting, and letting you put a 16 in Con instead. And, you have to delay actually getting up to 20 in your new main stat for 4 levels because of the feat cost.

That is HUGE. +2 higher on attacks or spellcasting is the equivalent of 2 ASIs and is the equivalent of 7 extra points in point buy.

You do not have to delay because V. Humans and Customs get a feat at 1st level and no one in their right mind would take any other class. This is like giving those two races a point buy of 34.

Any thoughts on particular character concepts where this feat would be a no-brainer take at early levels? (I'm not too worried about feats that are only good at level 12 or 16.) Again, try to ignore the flavor issues, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of stat switching to begin with.

Virtually all of them. I can't think of a single build that would not be better with this feat.

 

[TwoSix]

As written, this would make numerous builds OP. Moreover it would completely invalidate strength. Dexterity builds are already better than strength builds, now I can have a dex build that gets a +5 with a heavy weapon at 4th level. It also would nerf most races except for custom lineage and v. human. Those builds could get this feat at 1st level and never need the other stat. Then follow on with more feats and ASIs as per normal.

Yea, I think restricting it to the 3 mental stats would be more fair. I'll be honest, I was thinking more about enabling Int fighters and Cha paladins without needing hexblade/battle smith dips. Making a Dex based caster didn't occur to me.

A few builds that would be OP:
High dexterity Dwarven bladesinger using booming blade or green flame blade twice with GWM for 50+DPR as a wizard while using no spells and having a +4 to spell casting and a bonus action still available every turn.

It would only be one BB/GFB, not two (two attacks, but only one is a cantrip), unless there is some other shenanigan beyond bladesinging I'm not familiar with. And BB/GFB have anti-synergy with GWM, like any other damage increase without an increase in accuracy. But yea, full Dex bladesinger (only need Int for the AC boost while bladesinging) would be pretty beastly. Restrict it to Int for attacks, though, and I don't think it's too bad.

High Wisdom fighter with GWM and, a passive perception of 17 and a 16 con at 5th level while dumping str and dex.

High charisma Paladin who dumps strength

Those are the kind of builds I want to encourage!

I would disagree with this logic, and have not seen it often in actual play due to what it does to your skills. With most races two 16s and a 14 also means two 10s and an 8. Most non-martials I have seen built in games I play do not get a 16 in their attack stat (wizards excepted) and most martials, other than Paladins do not start with a 16 in their casting stat - usually it is a 15 and is boosted through a half-feat. No one other than Barbarians universally starts with a 14 Con in the games I play generally. Sometimes other martials start with a 14 con too, but I would say it is less than 50% of them even.

DIfferent groups, then. 14 Con is pretty much the standard, and 16/16 or 16/14 in main/secondary is also easily the most common distribution.

That is HUGE. +2 higher on attacks or spellcasting is the equivalent of 2 ASIs and is the equivalent of 7 extra points in point buy.

Considering we're talking about a game where "rolling for stats" is the default, that doesn't strike me as a big deal. I mean, gauntlets of ogre strength could be like 15 extra points in point buy (extrapolating a bit to get to 19), but I don't think they're overpowered.

You do not have to delay because V. Humans and Customs get a feat at 1st level and no one in their right mind would take any other class. This is like giving those two races a point buy of 34.

I mean, I can definitely see it for gishes, I'm not sure if other classes would bother. Why does a non-bladesinger wizard need to boost their weapon attack? Why would a barbarian bother to not use Strength? Why would a fighter?