D&D 4E Is infiltration/misdirection possible in 4E?

[WalkerWhite]

I am not writing this to start a edition war. It is just that I like to play a particular type of game, and I am having a very hard time to figure out how to do this in 4E. So, to be constructive, I am trying to elicit suggestions on what can be done to make this work.

Since first edition, my gaming group has always like to play infiltration games. Think of the video game "Thief". The object is to sneak in and out to achieve your objective with minimal combat. In fact, at the highest levels, if you pull an alert this typically results in a party wipe. In 3.x terms, you are commonly playing in areas that, if they resulted in straight up combat, would be 5 to 6 encounter levels above the party.

I understood how to design such a scenario in the first three editions. They were not perfect and each edition had problems, but I understood them. I do not understand how to do this in 4.0.

The first issue is gathering intel. There is no out-of-combat invisibility in this game. If you open a door -- even unseen -- then you break sustainability and lose your invisibility power for the day. Neither can you rely on scrying, as the rituals are capped at 5 rounds. Therefore, if you want intel on guard patterns or shift changes, scrying and invisibility are all out. As far as I can tell, your only option is to send a ranger or rogue -- they are only the characters that class stealth.

That by itself is not horrible. I can at least write adventures around this. The alert systems will not be as complicated or intricate as they could be in earlier editions, but I can do something. The problem is what to do when the party breaks into the area. My options seem much more limited.

For example, this is where an illusionist really shines. Illusionary wall to patch up that hole the druid punched with stone shape. Illusion of a guard on rotation after you take him out. Invisibility (or disguise) spells for the party. The first two are now rituals; no longer possible in real time crunch situations (you also cannot "puppet" the illusions under concentration, but that is an issue for another post). For the latter, it appears the best option is disguise self, which is daily cast on one target only.

Indeed, the whole misdirection part of the game appears to be largely eliminated. There are no auras to detect, much less to redirect or double-redirect. I cannot project and puppet images of my character in other locations. No charm or control spells to inject faulty intel into the enemy ranks.

So what's the deal? Does this just mean that 4.0 is not for me? Or is there something that can be done to satisfy me and my gaming group?

 

[Ximenes088]

Right now, magic-based infiltration stories aren't really supported. If your PCs rely on illusions to go unnoticed in the middle of an enemy camp, then 4e doesn't supply the tools you need out of the box. Mundane stealth and chicanery is easy enough, as any class can simply take skill training in stealth, and if you intend to make entire campaigns around that shtick, you may as well just give it to all of them for free and give the rogues a bonus skill to compensate.

What you _can_ do is simply hand them rituals that do the sort of things you want them to be able to do. If you want your PCs to be able to disguise themselves, create specific illusions, or turn invisible at level X, then just make rituals at those levels. Make them take however long you think is convenient to cast and set the limitations such as that any given ritualist can only cast them so many times per day. If you want to import old-school style Batman wizardry, then restrict them to the wizard. If you want to spread the tools out, then say that any particular ritualist can only cast one type of these rituals per day, forcing the party to split up the magic use and decide who should use what, when.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Arguably this should be easier to do in 4e than at any time previously, through the medium of 'Skill Challenges'.

One example given in some detail on the Wizards site talked about infiltration of the Steading of the Hill Giant (in the article about reusing old modules).

Another example from some playtest reports talked about using skill challenges to simulate the infiltration of a tower.

Essentially it moves away from the binary "pass/fail a single skill check to avoid disaster" which has traditionally been the main model supported.

Cheers

 

[Kordeth]

The first issue is gathering intel. There is no out-of-combat invisibility in this game. If you open a door -- even unseen -- then you break sustainability and lose your invisibility power for the day.

Say what now? Invisibility is a 6th-level wizard utility spell with "sustain standard" and only ends if you attack. Greater Invisibility at level 16 is much the same, but with Sustain Minor. How does that prevent you from opening doors?

Neither can you rely on scrying, as the rituals are capped at 5 rounds.

So you have to cast the rituals a few times to find out what you want to know--no big deal, and this actually makes infiltrating more of a challenge than "scry, note guard patrols, teleport."

Therefore, if you want intel on guard patterns or shift changes, scrying and invisibility are all out. As far as I can tell, your only option is to send a ranger or rogue -- they are only the characters that class stealth.

Invisibility still works, scrying is difficult but still doable, and anyone that wants to can spend a feat to train up Stealth.

That by itself is not horrible. I can at least write adventures around this. The alert systems will not be as complicated or intricate as they could be in earlier editions, but I can do something. The problem is what to do when the party breaks into the area. My options seem much more limited.

For example, this is where an illusionist really shines. Illusionary wall to patch up that hole the druid punched with stone shape. Illusion of a guard on rotation after you take him out. Invisibility (or disguise) spells for the party. The first two are now rituals; no longer possible in real time crunch situations (you also cannot "puppet" the illusions under concentration, but that is an issue for another post). For the latter, it appears the best option is disguise self, which is daily cast on one target only.

Illusions are primarily being saved for a dedicated illusionist class to be released later.

Indeed, the whole misdirection part of the game appears to be largely eliminated. There are no auras to detect, much less to redirect or double-redirect. I cannot project and puppet images of my character in other locations. No charm or control spells to inject faulty intel into the enemy ranks.

Forgive me for saying so, but all the missing options you've posted are related to spellcasting. Without trying to be snarky, did you play all-wizard games, or did the fighters and rogues have very little to do? 4E has specifically removed or weakened a lot of those spells that let wizards and clerics do what other classes do, only better.

Now, instead of the wizard scrying to find out about guard patrols, the wizard casting knock to get in, the wizard casting invisibility to evade detection, the wizard casting major arcana to simulate the dead guard on patrol, etc., the warlord might bribe folks in the tavern to find out about guard forces and patrol schedules (skill challenge) while the fighter takes on part time work as a guard to case the joint from the inside. The rogue picks the locks on the secret door the warlord found out about, while the ranger quickly takes down the guards before an alarm can be raised. Maybe the warlock's a sly devil who positions the dead guard so he looks like he's napping on the job, and the party moves along briskly to get in and out before the patrols change.

So what's the deal? Does this just mean that 4.0 is not for me? Or is there something that can be done to satisfy me and my gaming group?

I think you're expecting magic to carry all the weight of your spying/sneaking game, and that's not something 4E wants it to do. Magic is one tool in a party's arsenal, not the swiss-army solution to everything.

 

[Boarstorm]

Now, instead of the wizard scrying to find out about guard patrols, the wizard casting knock to get in, the wizard casting invisibility to evade detection, the wizard casting major arcana to simulate the dead guard on patrol, etc., the warlord might bribe folks in the tavern to find out about guard forces and patrol schedules (skill challenge) while the fighter takes on part time work as a guard to case the joint from the inside. The rogue picks the locks on the secret door the warlord found out about, while the ranger quickly takes down the guards before an alarm can be raised. Maybe the warlock's a sly devil who positions the dead guard so he looks like he's napping on the job, and the party moves along briskly to get in and out before the patrols change.

That... sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[WalkerWhite]

Say what now? Invisibility is a 6th-level wizard utility spell with "sustain standard" and only ends if you attack

Okay, maybe not opening a door, but pushing an obstacle out of a way will not leave you a standard action to spend to sustain it. Or am I missing something?

Forgive me for saying so, but all the missing options you've posted are related to spellcasting. Without trying to be snarky, did you play all-wizard games, or did the fighters and rogues have very little to do? 4E has specifically removed or weakened a lot of those spells that let wizards and clerics do what other classes do, only better.

As I said, I am trying to understand how to do this in 4E. In the past, it we have done what i have said with a combination of spell casters and magic items. Yes, the earlier editions were biased towards spell casters; I am not denying that. But you could "spread the love" to players that were not spell casters to make a fairly rich magic infiltration game. They do not all have to be wizards, but they need some form of magic. That is what I am trying to figure out here.

Another example from some playtest reports talked about using skill challenges to simulate the infiltration of a tower.

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. This definitely turns infiltration into a second class citizen to combat.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, to be constructive, I am trying to elicit suggestions on what can be done to make this work.

I'm guessing you'll be looking at a lot of skill challenges. I've heard rumors that they may be a little whacked as presented in the DMG, so be careful.

I understood how to design such a scenario in the first three editions.

Really? They're pretty tough with so many classes ill-suited to stealth and deception. It prettymuch becames a Rogue & Wizard (or Thief and Illusionist - or shapeshifted into a small bird Druid) show.

As far as I can tell, your only option is to send a ranger or rogue -- they are only the characters that class stealth.

You can structure it as a skill challenge using Stealth (and, probably, Perception and some others) as key skills. The Rogue or Ranger can 'carry' the party through much of the challenge, but, cross-classing is no longer an issue, if you take the Trained Feat, you're as good as the Rogue from then on (but for DEX bonus), skill focus is still there, too, so a /very/ stealthy group is possible.

The problem is what to do when the party breaks into the area. My options seem much more limited.

Skills are supposed to shine more than spells (or rituals) in such situations, now. Instead of the casters using invisibility or disguise self or massmorph or whatever, the skilled characters are supposed to get to actually shine a bit out of combat.

Indeed, the whole misdirection part of the game appears to be largely eliminated. There are no auras to detect, much less to redirect or double-redirect. I cannot project and puppet images of my character in other locations. No charm or control spells to inject faulty intel into the enemy ranks.

4e seems to be designed around straightforward, above bord action and combat. The way 'marks' and condidtions work, for instance (you automatically know exactly what they do to you), really points that way. Deception spells would trample all over that.

Does this just mean that 4.0 is not for me? Or is there something that can be done to satisfy me and my gaming group?

You should still be able to work with it. Use skill challenges, encourage the players to design thier group as a team, covering all the needed skill bases, with stealth a priority. Add new rituals (on both sides, perhaps), to put back in the magical intelligence/deception race, if you like. A deception ritual could be performed prior to an infiltration mission, for intance, and affect the whole party. Rituals could even be cribbed straight from earlier ed spells.

 

[Boarstorm]

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. [Skill challenges) turn infiltration into a second class citizen to combat.

(edited a touch to avoid multi-quoting for context).

Wait, how do you figure? I don't understand how skill challenges could be considered "second class citizens to combat"?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Skill challenges are abrieviated and abstract compared to combat (which is, itself, faster-paced and more abstract than 3e, I suppose). The number of rolls to resolve a single round of combat - 5 attack & damage rolls from the players, minimum, plus similar rolls from ememies, saves, etc - is likely more than the most complex skill challenge. You also don't generally have any analogs to the resource management or tactical positioning elements of combat in a skill challenge.

 

[beepeearr]

I can see where he is coming from with the skill challenge is a second class citizen to combat. For one, the vast majority of the classes exploits/spells/prayers are all combat oriented, heck even some of the utility powers are somewhat combat oriented.

Plus the combat system allows for quite a few tactics, while the Skill Challenge system though much better than what came before, doesn't have anywhere near the same level of possibilities 4E combat does hence the second class citizen.

I like skill challenges, but I do think there is room for improvement though.

I'm tinkering with an Idea I have for creating a Social Combat system using the foundation of 4E's combat system, and I think aspects of it could help for your campaign. At it's most basic level, it builds on the Skill challenge system, but removes how the challenge is resolved.

All the little nuances for various different things you can do during a skill challenge remain, only the way you determine success or failure change. Instead of a flat S/2xS success/failure rate, treat skill challenges like combat. If the party needs to sneak past some guards, ask them what they want to do then roll the skill challenges as normal, but subtract your successes from a pool of challenge points (CPs, these are the hit points of the challenge, to get a number appropriate to an encounter get the Avg hit point of a creature that is appropriate for characters of your level, then multiply it by your groups party size). For every success of your opponent add points to a failure pool, if the failure points increase to half of the challenges starting CPs, the challenge fails.

This isn't exactly what I'm thinking for a my Social Combat system, just hobbled from it to fit your needs, it's roughly the same success failure rate (ie in that you need 2 CPs for success for every 1CP your opponent needs), but with more room for error, ie it shouldn't have the same problem the current system does in that a simple 2/4 challenge is actually more difficult then a difficult 6/12 challenge, if you want a more difficult challenge simply calculate the base challenge rate for a creature of a higher level, but the failure rate as a lower creature.