Is Insight a Magical Ability?

[Kinneus]

One thing that's always puzzled me about the Insight skill is how easily it can pierce illusions, namely a changeling, doppleganger or oni's ability to assume another shape. One of the reasons those monsters are so terrifying is because they blend in with the rest of society. But to see through the veil, all somebody has to do is beat their Bluff check with an Insight check. Obviously, these monsters usually have Bluff trained, but I can't help but think it's not enough. It seems like if an oni waltzes through a crowded bazaar, he's eventually going to roll a 1.

This makes me wonder... since Insight can pierce magical illusions so easily, is it a quasi-magical ability, akin to Arcana? How would you, as a DM, roleplay a scene wherein a shapeshifting creature is 'discovered.' What happens? Does the illusion simply melt away for the person who made the successful Insight check? Does he get a queasy, "something-not-right-about-this-guy" feeling? Or is subtler and more mundane, like they notice that the disguised doppleganger mispronounces something or screws up some common cultural or racial greeting? Are shapeshifters able to scrape by simply because they never rouse enough suspicion to encourage an Insight check? Could an epic-level character with super-high Passive Insight become effectively "immune" to lower-level shapeshifters, seeing them instantly for what they are, at a glance?

 

[Piratecat]

Or is subtler and more mundane, like they notice that the disguised doppleganger mispronounces something or screws up some common cultural or racial greeting? Are shapeshifters able to scrape by simply because they never rouse enough suspicion to encourage an Insight check?

This is how I handle it; while some people might be really good at reading body language and picking up on emotions, insight is definitely not a magical ability.

 

[Negflar2099]

I also handle it the same way Piratecat does. It's not magical, just an ability to tell when someone is acting a little "not right" or something seems to be a little weird or strange.

That said I wouldn't require a shapeshifter to roll a Bluff check unless they were impersonating someone specific or something had come up where they might reasonably be discovered.

For instance I have two changelings in my party and each has one form they stick to as their default. I never require them to roll a bluff check to pass as that form, because it's not anyone specific. They are just looking human. Likewise if they were just impersonating some random dwarf (or other race) they wouldn't have to roll a check then either but if they wanted to convince the orc chieftain that they were his two best hunters, whom he's known since they were all kids, than yeah they would need a check. In that case a failure indicates they say or do something or act in a way that tips off the chieftain that they are not who they say they are.

 

[john112364]

I would never require an insight vs. bluff check unless you are interacting with someone who would have a reason to think differently. For instance if you are a changling disguised as a dwarf in a town who has never seen a dwarf, there would be no check. Who would know differently? But, if you are dealing with a dwarven merchant, he would (obviously) have a reason to see you as...off. It's definitely not magical. Some people are just better than others at reading body language, accents, etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

I would never require an insight vs. bluff check unless you are interacting with someone who would have a reason to think differently. For instance if you are a changling disguised as a dwarf in a town who has never seen a dwarf, there would be no check. Who would know differently? But, if you are dealing with a dwarven merchant, he would (obviously) have a reason to see you as...off. It's definitely not magical. Some people are just better than others at reading body language, accents, etc.

Passive Insight, yo. Passive Insight. There's a certain level of failure at disguisery that makes you go 'Look, I heard a rumor dwarves have beards, and I swear I saw some glue and string holding that guy's on. Am I being crazy?'

As for it being magical... um... depends how you skin it. I totally envision skills being able to have magical mojo being put into them. A warlock has stealth... could it be he has an advanced form of Shadow Walk workin? A psion has insight, maybe he IS a mindreader!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's just like with Perception, most of the time PCs don't go around making active checks left and right, but if they have some reason to be wary or suspicious then they can make a check. If you meet some gnome wandering around in the Underdark well, you'll probably check him out carefully, just like you'd probably check a door in a dungeon for traps.

Yes, passive Insight will potentially flag shape shifters and such, but really do epic level PCs have time to wander around looking for doppleganger assassins? They probably have better things to do with their time.

I don't think Insight is particularly magical. It could be fluffed that way in some cases if you want, but even IRL you can find people that are quite sensitive and when made suspicious most people can get SOME sort of read on another person. If a shape changer's disguise is penetrated then the character knows something isn't quite right. If they want to investigate further then there are ways to test a disguise.

Remember, a lot of these kinds of things aren't shape changing either. An Oni's ability is an illusion keyworded power. Grab hold of the thing and you've got your hands on a large humanoid monster instead of an old lady! The ability of a Lamia OTOH is a polymorph, it actually takes on a form and its disguise can only be pierced if it takes on a specific individual's form. This is true for a doppleganger/changeling as well AFAIK. The creature also gets a +20 to its Bluff check! Its not likely anyone is going to easily unmask a shape changer.

So if a Lamia is walking down the street imitating some random person, you don't even GET an Insight check. If its pretending to be your sister, then you get a check vs Bluff + 20. Reasonably if you're familiar with the individual being imitated then a hefty bonus to the Insight check is justified and there are likely to be fairly bullet-proof ways to positively identify someone you know really well.

Overall though shape changers have it pretty good. I'm not real sure most of them have a lot to fear.

 

[Turtlejay]

I am reminded of a Tom Clancy (I think) book, where he describes a secret russian town where spies learned to be American. Captured American servicemen served as instructors, and the spies basically lived a bizarro American life trying to perfect their ultimate bluff.

Only there were a couple of things wrong. The instructors were obviously not 100% on board, and would occasionally let slip small things that could give the spy away. The one I remember is the Dead Man's hand (Aces and 8's) but in this spy town, they learned it as a different combo for a full house. One of these doesn't blow a cover, but a string of them can.

The other is the way the Russian characters smoked. According to the author, Russians develop this habit of holding the end of their cigarrette up while smoking, as Russian cigarrettes are poorly made or somesuch. This is a tell that American spies can look for.

So Bluff/Insight is less supernatural, and more highly trained, almost instinctual observation or assumption of a role. The disguised doppelganger might mispronounce a common word, or not know a classic peasant dish or folk song. Really, there is no way to be foolproof, you will slip up eventually. And then your ability to think on your feet becomes your only defense. . .

Jay

 

[The_Fan]

Mu.

The question of "is X magical"? In 4e is really best answered like "Does a dog have a Buddha soul?" It can't be answered yes or no, because the distinction between "magical" and "non-magical" does not really exist in 4e anymore. You will never walk into an anti-magic field and find your weapons no longer work. You will never have your powers fail to work on a creature because it has spell resistance. On the flip side, a Fighter who uses Line In The Sand can have it destroyed by a Wizard who casts Dispel Magic! Everything is magic, and nothing is magic. It's all in how you describe.

That's an amazing way to not answer your question, but that's the way it is in 4e. A Warlord or Rogue might notice that the beautiful maiden's hair is blowing slightly out of sync with the wind. A Swordmage might feel his blade tremble in the presence of falsehood. A Warlock might hear the voices in his head suddenly start whispering "lies! lies!" A Monk might be so attuned that he hears the guard's heartbeat, and realizes there is no way a 5'6", 250 lb overweight guard's heart is beating 36 times in a minute.

What's important to note is that Insight does NOT pierce the illusion. Rather, it lets you know there is an illusion there. Knowing that wall is an illusion doesn't let you see behind it. You still need to interact or dispel with Arcana to determine if it's concealing a door, a hallway, or a particularly horrifying mural. Likewise, the other uses of Insight don't tell you much more. Knowing that someone is being influenced by an outside force doesn't let you know what it is or why. Could be possessed, could be mind controlled, or they could have his daughter. Knowing that someone is lying doesn't let you know what the truth is.

So go ahead and reskin Insight as magical, but don't forget that it does have limitations, and what those limitations are.