Is it a durable idea to use Tarot cards to resolve whim of chance?

Storm Gorm

First Post
I was struck by this thought, and was immediately electrified with sparks in my eyes, and my nostrils flared like a bird heading down for landing.

I am not 100% sure what a deck of Tarot cards consists of, but i have seen some cards, and they give me something of the same feel that roleplaying does. Math, on the other side (as the standard action resolution) is not very atmospheric. It sort of kills the mood. A roleplaying game session is like playing the erogenous piano that makes out a woman - if you play it wrong, its feelingless and cold, if you play it right, its vibrant with goodity.

Anyway - do you know of this ever having been done? And if not, do you think its a good idea, and could you help find out how this should or would be?

Gargantuan expectations,
Gorm the Conform
 

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That's one of the more... flavorful posts I've seen in quite a while. :D

Anyway, yes, people have done exactly what you've described before. (In fact, there was a game called Everway that did not use dice at all, using cards instead.)

However, there are a few things to keep in mind:

1) You'll need to be careful with your choice of decks. A tarot deck consists of 78 cards (22 'major arcana' cards and 56 'minor arcana' cards), and different decks have different appearances. Some, such as the Thoth deck, alter the meanings of a few cards and the minor arcana cards have nothing distinctive on their face, making it much more difficult. Other so-called tarot decks aren't really tarot... they're meant for card-reading, but have nothing to do with the traditional suits or meanings.

2) Be sure your players are okay with it. Some may have... personal issues with the use of tarot in their games. It may have special significance to them (pro or con). Anytime you want to use recognized 'occult' paraphernelia in your game, it's possible to offend someone. (On a personal note: keep Ouija boards away from me. *shudder*)

3) If you're not already familiar with the meanings of the cards, it's not going to do you much good. Some illustrations aren't going to be terribly useful for any kind of resolution in your game, without knowing what they're supposed to represent. It would slow things down if you flipped up a card... and it really didn't inspire an answer at all, so you had to get out a book to look up the card's meaning.

Hope that helps.
 
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Fortune-in-the-Middle

Hi all!

The technique is usually called Fortune-in-the-Middle, FitM for short. The concept is to use a randomizer to set up a vague resolution which is adjudicated in the light of "dramatic" concerns. The randomizer can be anything, from Tarot cards to coin tosses to standard dice rolls to bird watching. The exact type of randomizer isn't important, as long as it inspires a creative base from which the players may resolve a task in accordance with the drama of the situation.

Here's an example:


Grab a random art book. Open a random page. Ta da! Degas, La classe de danse; a dance instructor addresses his young ballerinas, some of whom are paying attention while others have their minds on other matters. How does that resolve the task at hand?

Again, another page is opened. Pater, Conversation Galante by a Fountain; a pleasant affair is being held among an Arcadian paradise, where the idle beautiful people relax and pursue amorous discourse. What does this say about the task at hand?


It's really an easy style to integrate into any game, with or without cards. However, the best references for integrating the technique are the following games:


Everway: This is the clearest rpg on the use of dramatic adjudiaction based upon vague randomizers. It isn't a tarot deck, but rather a custom deck with fantastic artwork.

Engel (Arkana system): Like Everway, but with less focused discussion on the nature of task resolution.

SAGA (Dragonlance or Marvel Super Heroes): This game uses cards both as a numerical randomizer and also as a spring point for circumstantial "drama." The cards are tailored to the setting, as an exploration of theme.

Castle Falkenstein: This is a more traditional card based resolution system, but it offers advice on integrating numerous components of the card into basic resolution that could also be applied to Tarot.

Whispering Vault: This game does not use cards, but it uses FitM as a technique for adjudication with dice! Yes, it works. The limitaion doesn't lie in the randomizer but in the player's mind.

Once Upon a Time: This isn't an rpg, but rather a competitive storytelling game. It uses cards depicting various fairy tale themes and tropes, from which the players attempt to control the narrative of the tale. The player who uses up their hand wins.


I'm certain that a more experienced gamer can offer up a few more examples, but these are the ones that I have significant personal experience with. So, in answer to your question, I think its a fine idea to implement.

Thanks for reading.


---Merova
 

A few Japanese TRPGs use tarot decks. Many of them also use standard 52-card decks, with or without jokers. I believe Tenra Bansho and the rest of the games produced by the same company use standard playing cards.
 

Gorm Storms his Brain

Allright. Now ive finally searched Bergens inner city for a deck of tarot cards. And after many an akward moment, asking for this and feeling prejudged and shameful immediately afterwards, almost half a dozen blushing times, i finally found a deck that im satisfied with. Let the rock begin to roll. Or the snowball perhaps, hopefully, if you will will help a wretched beggar of ideas like myself.

The deck i bought (man it was expensive by the way, im almost bitter) has a Renaissance theme, and suits, i should think, most fantasy settings. Im looking over them right now, trying to systemize them for my use.

Merova, first of all, thanks a whole world for recommending Once Upon A Time. I was playtesting this my newest collection item yesterday, and good gracious God, it was fun. Suits my group like tailored to us.

Second of all, very good concept, this FitM you talk of. I had (of course) some of the same thoughts about using tarot, but you put them to words. However, i wish for the tarot deck to function not purely as "inspiration" for my judgements as a GM, i want there to be a mechanic beneath. And this is what i need serious help with, being a relatively very inexperienced roleplayer. (The only systems i have knowledge of how work, is d20 and FUDGE)

So, first, here are all the cards listed as they are organized. There are 22 "major arcana" - which are really dramatic (e.g. Death), and 56 "minor arcana" - which are more mundane.

The minor arcana part of the deck have four different "themes", and these themes are like a normal deck of cards, only with the addition of the Knave, as valued under Knight. So each theme has one ace, numbers running from 2 to 10, a knave, a knight, a queen and a king. (every card is numbered of course, but it seems the ones in the middle [2 through 10] are less important than all the others [tell me if im wrong])

The four themes are as following; Chalices (or cups if one wishes), pentacles (or coins or discs), wands (or staffs) and finally swords.

And then the Major Arcana (fine words, i like them): They are also numered, from 0 to 21, although the importance of these numbers seem to be non-existent. I will now write all the names of the major arcana, even though many probably will find this annoying.

0. The Fool.
1. The Magician.
2. The High Priestess (on the motif holding a book of Tao and looking really stoned).
3. The Empress.
4. The Emperor.
5. The Hierophant.
6. The Lovers.
7. The Chariot.
8. Justice (not blind).
9. The Hermit (looking like Moses).
10. The Wheel.
11. Strenght.
12. The Hanged Man (not by the neck but by the FOOT(!).
13. Death (Grim Reaper, looking good).
14. Temperance.
15. The Devil (carrying a serpent and a fortune).
16. The Tower.
17. The Stars.
18. The Moon.
19. The Sun.
20. Judgement.
21. The World.

The largest problem with using tarot for mechanics is that combat and most heavy-on-the-trait-testing-situations will go really slow, that is IF one mixes the cards after every draw, which i think one should, to make total randomness. One possible solution to this is to do like suggested in the FUDGE rules, to handle combat not in secondwise intervals, but as larger bolks of story elements (for instance one entire battle may be represented by just a few rolls [or tarots]), so that BOTH one focuses more on story, as is healthy for any good game, AND makes it fast and dramatic. I am not extremely fan of this solution to The Largest Problem.

I am reeling more towards using BOTH dice and tarot, giving them seperate functions. For instance, i might use them as a "luck" thing - of course adding the estimated relative chance of sucess on beforehand, as with dice. Hmm, that might not be all that different from the use of dice after all... no, i give up.

NO, WAIT! Maybe i can use elements from Once Upon A Time, drawing a tarot card every once in a while, just to make the story itself take gentle turns in the cards directions. Sort of a FUDGEistic Story Element, but indirectly, me as GM having this in the back of my head during a session or a "story bolk", if you wish (and i do). And maybe i can even reveal the cards after a while, especially if the characters of play are supersticious, and are "looking for divine signs", as supersticious people do (no offence intended to you, but im really not buying the whole divine intervention thing, im too clever [hehe]). Thatll make a good, perhaps great story atmosphere thing, and goes really well with the fantasy setting. Man, im a genious.

Or?

Anyways, there are one more problem, but that is only relevant if one should use tarot as mechanics, and the problem is how to read more or less specific "values" or meanings from the cards? Of course, one can use the numbers, and use the card motif as flavour, but this is a bit weak when the Ace of each theme in Minor Arcana is (of course) number 1. And the numbers on the Major Arcana cards have no use in this sense. I would have to come up with specific meanings for every one of these 22 cards, and useful meanings of each of the four themes as well.

Do you have any suggestions? To any of my problems? Do you like the idea of "Fate Element", as i now have baptized it (the "theme" driving a session or a part of the story thing)?

Yours still increasingly electric,
Gorm Calm (Aw, that was MUCH better than "Storm Gorm", damnit)
 
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How bout if each of the four themes of the Minor Arcana can represent the core themes of standard roleplaying (that is, if it doesnt interfere with the planned plot of course), like perhaps:

Swords - "struggle, battle, conflict, power, strength of mind as well as the body" or strange lack of these
Coins - "wealth, riches, material things, fortune, status" or strange lack of these
Wands - "divinity, supernatural, myth&mystery, wisdom" or strange lack of these
Cups - "emotions, feelings, (search for) happiness, soul, spirit" or strange lack of these

This is perhaps quite natural, even if i were to take it by the gefuehlen (on the spot)

Still, i like to build systems.
 


The Tarot option can be a real headache!

Hello Storm Grom,

I have delved into the Tarot for gaming myself. However, my experiences led me to endure some really head-splitting aches. :mad:

I had wanted to use if for my EsoTerrana Campaign www.esoterrana.com, and as such carried out a lot of research. However, there are many discrepancies between Tarot cards from different decks though, most popular cards converge on similar meanings (the Thoth decked is preferred by gamers, though Rider-Waite has more information available about it).

Historically, there is much dispute on the true meanings of the cards. And most popular decks of the Renaissance Period are very Christian oriented. I like the Oto-Zen deck though it can confuse novice players. Also, the right side up and upside down meanings are not defacto standards!!!

Anyway, if any of you guys have experiences you would like to share with me, please send me an email at mail@EsoTerrana.net. My project has stalled due to lack of interested writers and gamers.

Thanks and best luck with your gaming sessions. :D

Remi Fayomi.
 
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Storm Gorm said:
A roleplaying game session is like playing the erogenous piano that makes out a woman - if you play it wrong, its feelingless and cold, if you play it right, its vibrant with goodity.
Storm Gorm, this is the greatest thing I have ever read. That's going in the .sig...

And to stroll gently back towards the topic, I've never used Tarot in a game before, but using cards in general is great. I played Deadlands for years, and that relied on a standard poker deck (as well as dice) for much of its task resolution.
 

Torg does also use a Drama Deck Card (which are costumizend cards specifically for the system, but you could probably also use a card deck).
During a combat round, the DM opens up a card determining:
o Initiative
o Action that if succesful allow a character to gain a card

The player get also cards (4 outside of combat, more during a combat round due to the special actions). These allow things like:
o +3 to certain (ability based) checks
o Roll an extra d20 to improve the result (Possibility)
o +3 bonus to another ones check
o Connection: Find a connection (whereever you are) to help you out
o Romance: (Self explainatory)
o True Identity: Learn something secret about a person
o Escape: End a fight or evade a pursuer
o Monologue: Speak for one round, avoiding all others to act
o Martyr: Die to safe the others
o Nemesis: Find your nemesis.

This deck was real fun and some aspects forced the Gamemaster to incorporate certain effects in the game (like Romance, Connections and so on).
Unfortunately, you will have difficulties to find Torg books or decks today, but this might give you a good idea what you could do with cards...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

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