Is it a durable idea to use Tarot cards to resolve whim of chance?

[Norfleet]

(On a personal note: keep Ouija boards away from me. *shudder*)

Have you ever seen or successfully operated one? I've tried. I've tried screaming it, cursing at it, exhorting it to work, thumping it, shaking it, and even kicking it. It doesn't seem to do anything.

As a side note, however, it's funny to give the "Bullting Ouija Board" to players.

 

[babomb]

I used to use a <i>Deck of Many Things</i> (download it <a href="http://www.wizards.com/electronic/patches/Drmg148A.pdf">here</a>) when DMing. I didn't use it for combat or anything like that, but when I wasn't sure whether a certain thing would happen or what a certain person would do, I'd pull a card and use that to make a decision. The idea of using a Tarot Deck as the theme of a campaign is intriguing, and I like the combat modifier idea as well.

 

[Maldur]

Falkensteins suplement Comme Il faux has rules for using a tarot deck as a randomiser. The normal falkenstein game is played using a normal deck of cards btw.

 

[Storm Gorm]

Hrm, what I would do is to separate the major and minor arcana, and use them only during combats.

Wouldnt this make combat slow and clumsy, with too many modifiers and things floating about in your head adding and subtracting?

I have beaten the idea of using tarot for any minor resolution away from me, entirely. But they are far from useless. The best, most entertaining and most interesting way they can be used are as a random element for the GM, as where the players have their dice. (Oft upon a time, my GM [and myself when i am GM] has been bored with his own game, clearly because planning the plan is more engaging than playing the plan) With Tarot cards pulling and pushing in the story, playing a session can become much more fun than the regular duty-relationship many have to this.

My suggestion is use cards as a sort of 'dramatic point' system. That is, if someone uses a card, it shoves action in their favor.

So long as the player presents a compelling way the card supports their action (even if it isn't 'proper'), it works. This is best if the cards are fairly detailed and show real world actions, or the symbolism is fairly obvious.

This removes the onus of deciding what it 'really' means or success/failure, and gives players some freedom to storytell.

Drematic Point, Fate Element, Story Element, yes. But this is not supposed to be a thrill for the players (although it will anyways), it is the GM that draws the tarot. And; the GM shall be the only authority of what the tarot cards mean, and in what way it influences, in the same way that he decides everything else in a game.

The GM deals each separate vital story element a tarot card, and reads from this a direction toward which the story told is drawn.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

And then the Major Arcana (fine words, i like them): They are also numered, from 0 to 21, although the importance of these numbers seem to be non-existent.

The numbers themselves are not important, but the order of the cards describes the journey of "The Fool" (card 0)--ending with The Fool's re-emergence into The World, "but this time with a more complete understanding. He has integrated all the disparate parts of himself and achieved wholeness. He has reached a new level of happiness and fulfillment. The Fool now experiences life as full and meaningful."

I don't know where I got that quotation from, but it's from an on-line Tarot course I looked at years ago.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Wouldnt this make combat slow and clumsy, with too many modifiers and things floating about in your head adding and subtracting?

I don't see why it would, drawing the cards would take like 10 seconds and not even that and at most 2 cards would be into effect, and 90% of the time or so not even that. The effects are relatively mild, adding or subtracting 1 or 2-as long as the card remains face up where you drew it the effects would easily seen.

 

[Storm Gorm]

Sollir, i beg to differ. I have a personal quest of lighten the burden of rule-heaviness, and your idea for tarot makes my principles erupt violently. I want the opposite for tarot, i want them (as well as most other things in rpg) to be more flavour, less numbers.

So maybe we shouldnt have this specific discussion, since we have incommensurable premises. (that is, i resign from critisizing your idea, let the other lions have a bite)

Lets instead find out other ways of including tarot (as mere flavour or nay)

 

[Feathercircle]

I THOUGHT this sounded vaguely familiar... Here's a pair of related links from someone who integrated Tarot into their Planescape campaign. There might be somethng here you can use.

http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/people/pc/rogan/index.html
http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/people/pc/luckindex.html

 

[woodelf]

I was struck by this thought, and was immediately electrified with sparks in my eyes, and my nostrils flared like a bird heading down for landing.

I am not 100% sure what a deck of Tarot cards consists of, but i have seen some cards, and they give me something of the same feel that roleplaying does. Math, on the other side (as the standard action resolution) is not very atmospheric. It sort of kills the mood. A roleplaying game session is like playing the erogenous piano that makes out a woman - if you play it wrong, its feelingless and cold, if you play it right, its vibrant with goodity.

Anyway - do you know of this ever having been done? And if not, do you think its a good idea, and could you help find out how this should or would be?

Gargantuan expectations,
Gorm the Conform

I'd see how cheaply you can get a copy of Everway. Unopened boxes are often to be had on eBay and online retailers for US$5--i'd suspect even overseas shipping costs would make it still a bargain in your situation. It used a custom card deck much like the Major Arcana of the Tarot for action resolution, and is very rules light in other ways. I don't have time tonight for a more-detailed intro, but if nobody else puts one into this thread, i'll see what i can do.

 

[woodelf]

Second of all, very good concept, this FitM you talk of. I had (of course) some of the same thoughts about using tarot, but you put them to words. However, i wish for the tarot deck to function not purely as "inspiration" for my judgements as a GM, i want there to be a mechanic beneath. And this is what i need serious help with, being a relatively very inexperienced roleplayer. (The only systems i have knowledge of how work, is d20 and FUDGE)

So, first, here are all the cards listed as they are organized. There are 22 "major arcana" - which are really dramatic (e.g. Death), and 56 "minor arcana" - which are more mundane.

The minor arcana part of the deck have four different "themes", and these themes are like a normal deck of cards, only with the addition of the Knave, as valued under Knight. So each theme has one ace, numbers running from 2 to 10, a knave, a knight, a queen and a king. (every card is numbered of course, but it seems the ones in the middle [2 through 10] are less important than all the others [tell me if im wrong])

The four themes are as following; Chalices (or cups if one wishes), pentacles (or coins or discs), wands (or staffs) and finally swords.

And then the Major Arcana (fine words, i like them): They are also numered, from 0 to 21, although the importance of these numbers seem to be non-existent. I will now write all the names of the major arcana, even though many probably will find this annoying.

First, some specific points:
IIRC, the significance of the numbering of the Major Arcana is a matter of quite some debate. It is pretty clearly not hierarchical, but it does seem to be ordinal.

The 4 suits are associated with the 4 elements, and thus the aspects of a person: cups/chalices: water: emotion, feeling, perception, intuition
pentacles/coins/stones: earth: resilience, fortitude, willpower, groundedness
swords: air: thought, mind, ideals, logic
wands/staves: fire: action, power, energy

Yes, the face cards are generally considered more significant than the numbered cards.

Now, as for how to use them. A few ideas. I'll use example games when i can.

Everway (custom deck): action is resolved in one of 3 ways. Drama: what would make the best story. Karma: who's got the highest stat? Karma: draw a card, and use it to adjudicate the result. If the card seems applicable, go with it. Otherwise, you can always fall back on orientation: upright is good (success), reversed is bad (failure). In any case, actions are generally resolved for a significant unit of time, possibly an entire scene, rather than one action at a time. Using a Tarot in this way would probably work best if you only used the Major Arcana.

Castle Falkenstein (poker deck): You have a small hand of cards. Each suit is associated with one aspect of the character (mental, social, emotional, physical), and all attributes are likewise associated with an aspect. You start with your score in the attribute, and must exceed a difficulty (which you may or may not know). If your attribute isn't high enough, you add to it by playing cards. A card in the appropriate suit adds the full value. Others just add one point. Using a Tarot in this manner would work best if you only used the Minor Arcana.

Torg (custom deck): Torg actually uses cards todo several things. One of these is determine initiative. But the main one is to give the players extras. You have cards and can choose to play them at any time. Some give you a bonus to a roll or action. Others introduce a "subplot". To use Tarot in this manner, give the players each a small hand of cards to play at will. Numbered Minor Arcana can be used to add their value to an appropriate action (using the elemental associations). The court cards give some sort of automatic or extraordinary success in their area. The Major Arcana introduce subplots--basically, the player gets to make a significant alteration to the course of the game, within the parameters of the meaning of the card. This should not be as simple as automatic success or failure, but should rather be a twist, for good or ill.

Storypath Cards/Whimsy Cards (custom deck): These are cards that can be added on to any RPG, because they basically sit outside the rest of the mechanics. Like the subplot cards in Torg, they are all about tweaking the story, giving authorial control to the players in small doses. Each player generally has a small number to start with, which they play at will. Used in this way, you would probably use the entire deck, but the Minor Arcana would simply have less "power" to change the course of the story. You'd need to set up parameters for what can be done and how much influence they can have. The "usual rules" are that a card may only affect another PC with that player's consent, and a card played to the player's/group's detriment is replaced with another card, while one spent to help is just spent. For more detailed consideration of this technique, including using the cards in place of XP, check out our game Four Colors al Fresco, at http://www.tiltingatwindmills.net (free for download).

Scene setting isntead of action resolution: The question becomes not "can you succeed?", but "what do you want to happen?" Extend the idea of the Storypath cards to be the only resolution mechanism. Completely divorce resolution from character capabilities. Instead of figuring out what the characters are capable of, you are figuring out which player gets to decide what happens. Playing a card could be a bidding exercise (whoever plays the highets card, or total of cards, gets to decide) or it could be thematic (each person gets to play one card in turn, but they have to abide by the general meaning of the card), or some combination.

Hmmm...well, those are some ideas. There are *many* more ways cards have been used in RPGs, and probably a few more that they haven't, but i have to get to work.