Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

Sebastian Francis said:
You must be a role-player, then. *That's* the trouble.

Pssst...be careful. The number-crunching, mix/maxing, powergaming munchkins will eat you alive... ;)

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CHOMP!!!!!!
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Hmmmm, needs some ketchup. Maybe a touch of garlic too... :]
 
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francisca said:
Despite the streamlined, cohesive ruleset of 3.x, a DM can still screw the party, either through malice or negligence. It all comes down to trust between the DM and players. But now we're getting into other threads.
I agree 100%. In fact, that's something that usually strikes me with many threads about problems with 3e...is that it often isn't about the game, it's about the relationships in a particular game. Trust is a necessary element between DM and Players. But you're right, that's another thread. :)


francisca said:
I never said exclusive. I'm not B.A. Felton. I know these guys have the books at home. I just don't let them thumb through the MM and such at the table. In retrospect, I guess I didn't make it clear in the original post. I assumed when I said "never", it would be obvious that I meant it in regards to that situation.
AH-HA! That's where my disconnect came from, I think. I agree, particularly at low levels...the DMG should never be some crutch the players use. When the dice are rolling, you use what you've got. Heck, I almost always apply that at high-levels, too. Books down, pencils out, dice ready. Begin. ;)
 

francisca said:
Let me add to this that I have witnessed this very thing in LG. I sat and saw a guy roll a knowledge check, and the DM told him it was OK to pull out the MM and read up on the monster we were facing. I asked the guy if this was normal. He said something like: "Well, we got cheat books for Diablo and all the CRPGs, here we have Knowledge checks."

Looking around the room (there were 5 or 6 other groups), this seemed to be the normal style of play, even outside of LG.

Well, I've never done tournament play, I'm not part of the RPGA, and I don't do LG. And if this is typical, I'm glad I'm not. In my games, the DMG, MM, and other DM-only stuff is completely off-limits to players during gameplay. That's the way it was supposed to be, by the book, in earlier editions, and it's sure as hell not going away in my game. The player should have some uncertainty as to what they face. That's why I never tell them exactly what the monster is they're facing, only giving vague descriptions. Humanoid stuff like goblins and orcs are just stated as goblins and orcs, but then the players don't know how many class levels they have.

The same thing goes for magic items. I never say, "This is a +1 longsword." No, they have to cast detect magic to know it's magical in the first place, and identify to learn it has a +1 bonus.

I do it this way, because as DM, I'm free to tweak items and monsters however I choose — and I'm under no obligation to let the players know that a variant is at work. Discovery of the unknown is part of what the game is about.

Yeah, it also helps me cover up when I screw up. :]
 
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Psion said:
Honestly, I'd say 1e+UA or 2e+S&P.

Why is simple: they had lots of options that empowered you with minimal drawbacks. Free psionics. The cavalier. UA demihumans. Or in S&P, the cleric.

Let's not forget S&P's biggest munchkin wet dream: Strength subabilities. Boost your effective Str for hit and damage by 2, while lowering your effective Str for encumbrance by 2. It's really balanced, even though encumbrance is optional, and a hell of a lot of groups never even use it. And we'll ignore how boosting Str to 19 or 20 really screws up balance by bypassing those kludgy old Exceptional scores.
 

francisca said:
I am seeing (and will see tonight, I am sure) non-LG DMs not casting Hold Portal on those loopholes, however.

Hold portal? Why would I use such a weak spell like that for this purpose? Nah, my spell of choice here is banishment. With Rule 0 as my arcane focus. :]
 
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Orius said:
Well, I've never done tournament play, I'm not part of the RPGA, and I don't do LG. And if this is typical, I'm glad I'm not.
Again, I can only speak for my experience, but that is what I have seen.

Before I went and gamed with these guys, I had heard of this, so I was a bit apprehensive, as that style isn't my cup of tea. I posted here, and got alot of the predictable "your mileage may vary" kind of responses, but I got enough good testimonials that I went anyway.

The upside for me is that the most calculating player has pretty well left the group, so it is settling down into a group of more or less like-minded players.

Which is another point: The DM and players all need to be on the same page as far as expectations of what style of play you will be in, session to session.
 

Because of the ever progressively slower leveling in 1e/2e, there comes a point where you are not really adventuring for xp. If you are adventuring to get "better", you are really adventuring to acquire more stuff.

In my experience, 1e/2e PC over 6th level are mostly defined by their equipment. One of my favorite things about 3e is that characters are finally now interesting individuals without their Bags of Holding filled with magical equipment.


Yeah, but I see this in 3e just as much. It's fun to get more stuff. But in anycase I never defiened my characters by their stuff. That's one of the reasons I like starting at lower levels. I feel more connected to a character that I've grown into. Not because of the stuff he has or the abilities he has. But because I've grown his personality and his traits. To me the adventure comes from the story being told rather then the stuff you have...

But I guess that's also why I dislike powergaming. To me powergaming seems like a steven segal movie... In his movies he always seems unfalable. Enemies come at him one at a time or all at once but they just fly away in the face of his unstoppable kung-fu might. Never once do I feel any tension because "he might not make it through this one" No matter what happens I know he's just going to bowl over all of his enemies. It gets boring to me.

I can't identify with this in either movies or games. I need that ability to fail built into my characters. I don't want to be an unstoppable fury of power. That way, when I DO overcome my obstacles it means that much more to me.
 

There's a lot of different things at work here, though I think for the first time I'm taking this '3e is too gamist!' complaint as more than just the grousing of grognards. ;)

First of all, it's important to note that this is the mood of players and DM's, not of the game system itself. There's nothing really peculiar about 3e that *makes* you play in that gamist style. There's nothing that enables it or really encourages it, beyond perhaps that the rules assume you're using minis (and even that can be debated -- minis are older than D&D itself, and every edition as availed us of their usefulness). Now, the important thing is that there's nothing in 3e that *discourages* it, either. The rules are clear, concise, easy to use, with a recordable cost and nifty ways to handle complex issues. This is one of the greatest things about 3e D&D, but it has borne with it some tendancies that aren't for everyone. Obviously, 3e has benefited from people with actual game design degrees, who knew mathematics, who knew reward systems, who could keep people playing by giving a ruleset that rewarded you for doing well. This streamlined ruleset is so easy to use, it sometimes implies a lack of complexity, which is not something that is for every game. Witness the "magic shop" debate. The special feeling or complex action vs. the simplicity of simply being able to cast magic missile once more in a day.

Now, the reason 3e went with a solid ruleset and didn't elaborate much is because of one of the main complaints with 2e: it stifled creativity. It told you how things had to be. It limited you, provided no wiggle room, and said "you play the game like this, or you're playing it outside of the norm." Of course, in an environment like that, with a rules system so full of holes, 2e was pretty much played outside the norm as the norm. Almost no one used the RAW, which means many had complex house rules.

When 3e was made, it was made for the 2e audience...those people complaining about those restrictions that were in many cases purely for story purposes. So the designers focused on the game, on making the thing playable, assuming that the wildly creative D&D audience could fill the gaps they left in story and design. It was their job to figure out a universal cost for a scroll, it was the DM's job to hang flavor on that, to describe exotic ingredients, to dictate where one could obtain such a thing, etc, etc. It was intentionally modular, simplistic, and elegant. It was a skeleton, and you could do the story yourself. Enough people in 2e proved that they didn't need the game designers telling them how to capture flavor...they could do it themselves. What the 2e audience needed was a coherent ruleset.

Now, 3e had the fortune (good or bad is up to individual judgement) to come along at a time when the computer gaming industry was just hitting it's stride. Computer games have a long tradition of RPG's, often with loosely based D&D rip-offs among them (tell me that the "Mind Flare" from early Final Fantasy isn't just a rip-off of the Illithid, and I'll smack you with a strategy guide!). 3e certainly benefited from looking at the approaches that electronic game designers were using...magic items with costs, a process for determining the challenge of monsters, features that you could choose as you leveled up independant of race and class. A modular nature -- every new book is an expansion pack. These are rules elements...many videogames don't really explain them much, because they don't have to. You don't wonder why the merchant is in the dungeon selling potions because you're in the dungeon and you need the potions. It's obvious that the save point is before a boss battle. These elements are accepted in the electronic game because they facilitate fun game play....and they do the same thing in D&D....the only problem is that D&D, as a more creative excersise, demands that these inexplicable things are explained.

Or not. See, with 3e, people no longer *need* complex stories, plots, epic journeys, intricate relationships....it's fluff. It's superfluous to a game of D&D. That doesn't mean it's not important to some people, just that it is unnessecary. D&D can be played perfectly easily as another style of RPG, because the rules system works so well that it's as invisible as the binary that programs the latest polygonal wonder. In 2e, the game largely mandated that you have story...you were a bad player if you didn't. In 3e, you're perfectly fine to be out in the open and not give a crap about how your level 5 half-orc barbarian reached level 5, got to the dungeon, and cared about the treasure in the first place. That, plus the popularity of some nonsensical things in videogames, have lead to people playing purely for the enjoyment of the game, no story, no plot, no relationship, just *playing*. It's accepted by D&D, and it's reinforced by what they enjoy when not playing D&D. It's purely metagame, and it's A-OK.

Which has lead in some cases to increasing divide between those who need a good story, and those who need a good attack roll. There have always been extremists at either end, but the just-playing-a-game crowd is growing to be the mainstream, rather than fringe munchkins who ruin the experience for everyone. Indeed, those insisting on intricate story may be the ones who ruin the experience now.

I'm firmly in the tell-a-story camp. I wouldn't be happy on a dungeon crawl, and I wouldn't like to play with people who are power-players first (though a little bit is always encouraged. ;)). But I'm also interested enough in the game itself to make knowledge checks = monster entries a cool idea to me. I'm interested in ways to make playing the game more exciting and interesting just as I'm interested in discovering ways to make the story I'm telling more exciting and interesting. I like simplification, and I know it's always easier to add complexity than to take it away. Even my games, story-based as they are, thirst for cool power ups (in my case, monster manuals are my vice...I've got an excel spreadsheet with entries for every monster in the MM, MM2, ToH, ToH2, Draconomicon, Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, Fiend Folio, Psionics Handbook, Monsers of Faerun...well, you get the idea).

But the two styles are not mutually incompatible. There has to be good gameplay. But once the good gameplay is there, telling a story could be just as interesting, if not more so...and tying a good story into the gameplay (like by giving individualized powers rather than GP or treasure, and tying that into the plot) is always grand.

I'm done musing for now....but though this certainly isn't an edition problem, it probably is a recently growing "problem" for those who lean more heavily into the story of D&D than I do, because the mainstream is becoming those who are perfectly OK without it. I know WotC isn't going to change it...it's up to us, it's up to third parties...without loosing the brisk and easy-to-use rules, make something interesting.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand go.
 

Hey Kamikaze Midget!

I'd be very interested in a copy of that spreadsheet... I have all those books, but so far have only entered data in my custom software for the monsters in the SRD. If you're willing, that is.

frednospamramsey at mailnospamblocks dot commmm

:)
 

I'm done musing for now....but though this certainly isn't an edition problem, it probably is a recently growing "problem" for those who lean more heavily into the story of D&D than I do, because the mainstream is becoming those who are perfectly OK without it. I know WotC isn't going to change it...it's up to us, it's up to third parties...without loosing the brisk and easy-to-use rules, make something interesting.

My fear is that's exactly what WOTC is doing but in the oposite way. Because it's easier to make "options" books seem more needed, they push away from the storytelling aspect. As newer players come into the game they look to WOTC naturaly as the maker of the game for the explanation of what the game IS. And if WOTC says it's simply a collection of options and bonuses letting you be betetr at the game then that's what it is to them. They never get the chance to experience the imagination side simply because it's no longer there.*

*note I'm not saying this is the way it is now. I'm saying I'm worried this is the direction we're headed.
 

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