Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

[Storyteller01]

Thanks scribble, that's the point I wanted to make !

I don't mind the system, or the power gamer set (even I seek out, research, and choose the most powerful combos). But with the jump from 3.0 to 3.5, I'm starting to see a lot of the same sales strategies WotC uses to keep MtG going, such as small but expansive rules changes that change how a character is played (Weapons Finesse covers all light weapons [I think], options that improve a chance for a critical threat no longer stack, etc)
I'm not smacking 3.5, just noting some examples

Now I know that you don't HAVE to buy the product, but much like MtG, the new books and resources are pitched in such a way that you believe you need them (what new PrC will come out! I hope it can't trump my Archmage)

I'm wondering, how long will this last, and will 4.0 come out when there are too many options?

I know the company has to make a profit, but it seems like so much has been lost or shelved as fluff.


Scary Thought!!: WotC, the cigarette company of the gaming indusrtry!!!

 

[Storyteller01]

[size=+5]

CHOMP!!!!!!​

[/size]

Hmmmm, needs some ketchup. Maybe a touch of garlic too...

HEY< WATCH IT!!! My virtual arse is not for chomping!!

 

[francisca]

Scary Thought!!: WotC, the cigarette company of the gaming indusrtry!!!

Didn't WhizKids Trademark that with MageKnight, the Clix stuff, and Pirates of the Spanish Main?

 

[Storyteller01]

Probably, but Hasbro has a larger following...

 

[Umbran]

Or not. See, with 3e, people no longer *need* complex stories, plots, epic journeys, intricate relationships....it's fluff.

I don't agree that you *needed* those things in 1e or 2e either. The term "dungeonhopping" was coined for 1e play, you know - going from one dungeon adventure to the next, with no real linkage of plot between them. It isn't like White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors or Expedition to the Barrier Peaks are about plot or story, you know. Story was as superfluous then as it is now.

As newer players come into the game they look to WOTC naturaly as the maker of the game for the explanation of what the game IS. And if WOTC says it's simply a collection of options and bonuses letting you be betetr at the game then that's what it is to them. They never get the chance to experience the imagination side simply because it's no longer there.

Why have this fear? What happens when someone asks WotC what the game is today? They are told (3.5e PHB, pg 4):

"The D&D game is a fantasy game of your imagination. It's part acting, part storytelling, part social interaction, part war game and part dice rolling."

Right there, in the introduction, the first things you read about what the D&D game is - war game and dice rolling are there, but at the end of the list, not the beginning. The production of many supplements has not changed the thrust of that message, if people bother to read it. The idea that it isn't all about the rules is scattered all through the rulebooks.

The thing you should fear isn't the message that WotC sends. Because people don't commonly turn to the publisher to find out what the game is about. Few learn the game from the books directly - they learn it from their friends. If the friends like the "gamist" approach, that's the message they'll get, regardless of what the book or publisher says.

And again, we come back to the players. Always to the players.

 

[Storyteller01]

I don't agree that you *needed* those things in 1e or 2e either. The term "dungeonhopping" was coined for 1e play, you know - going from one dungeon adventure to the next, with no real linkage of plot between them. It isn't like White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors or Expedition to the Barrier Peaks are about plot or story, you know. Story was as superfluous then as it is now.



Why have this fear? What happens when someone asks WotC what the game is today? They are told (3.5e PHB, pg 4):

"The D&D game is a fantasy game of your imagination. It's part acting, part storytelling, part social interaction, part war game and part dice rolling."

Right there, in the introduction, the first things you read about what the D&D game is - war game and dice rolling are there, but at the end of the list, not the beginning. The production of many supplements has not changed the thrust of that message, if people bother to read it. The idea that it isn't all about the rules is scattered all through the rulebooks.

The thing you should fear isn't the message that WotC sends. Because people don't commonly turn to the publisher to find out what the game is about. Few learn the game from the books directly - they learn it from their friends. If the friends like the "gamist" approach, that's the message they'll get, regardless of what the book or publisher says.

And again, we come back to the players. Always to the players.

Agreed, but what story and imagination based concepts are being promoted?

There is FR, but it can be argued that others play simply because of the sheer power involved (I don't know how many times people have claimed to be the Ninth Chosen of Mystra, an uber spellfire user, etc. Someone actually tried to get a spellfire user with HEAP rounds made of some Fearunian material into my Dragon Star campaign.)

Dark Sun made a brief appearance in the Expanded Psionics books and Dragon Magazine.

Ravenloft has been out-sourced to White Wolf Publishing, if it still sees sales.

There is Oriental adventures/L5R, but that is also a d20 conversion from AEG.

There is Grey Hawk and Ebberon, but I don't know about either of these settings to say one way or the other.

I see a lot of mechanical discussion, but not a lot of story (unless it is expected that the DM's come up with their own. Just let me know ahead of time).

 

[Scribble]

The thing you should fear isn't the message that WotC sends. Because people don't commonly turn to the publisher to find out what the game is about. Few learn the game from the books directly - they learn it from their friends. If the friends like the "gamist" approach, that's the message they'll get, regardless of what the book or publisher says.

I disagree. While I know people don't litterally dial up WOTC on the phone and ask what is roleplaying, the style of the games and books being published have an effect that can push people in one direction or another. Just look at the popularity of playing a dark elven ranger...

Yes people do learn the ropes from friends, but after a while if the trend is to push it towards a MTG type gameplay, then more and more people will teach their friends that these ARE the ropes.

Again I'm not saying that there is no imagination left in the game, or that crunch rules are bad (and I'm pretty sure neither is storyteller...) I just want to make sure that the game always retains BOTH of its sides.

After all you need both crunch and fluff to make your elven swordmaster kill the ogre magi...

 

[Thanee]

There is FR, but it can be argued that others play simply because of the sheer power involved (I don't know how many times people have claimed to be the Ninth Chosen of Mystra, an uber spellfire user, etc.)

In the dozen or so FR campaigns I have played in by now, I've yet to see a single person want to play anything like that.

FR has a rich and very detailed background, that's why I like it, at least.

Granted, there are some very powerful feats, PrC, etc in the 3rd edition FR supplements, which often find their way into those powergaming builds, but that doesn't mean that most players also play that way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Umbran]

Agreed, but what story and imagination based concepts are being promoted?

The imagination of the 3rd party publishers and the individual GM is being promoted.

This makes a lot of sense, really. WotC only has a few people in it. The mass of 3rd party publishers and gamers vastly outguns them in terms of sheer imagination. There's no real driving reason to try to give us what we can make better for ourselves.

So, WotC gives us what we can't do for ourselves - reasonably solid rules options. That takes a level of mastery and organization comnbined that the guy at home or the small press can't easily muster. And even then, they give us options such that nobody is likley to use all of them. Instead, they are specifically designed for us to look at, think about, and pick and choose.

 

[Umbran]

While I know people don't litterally dial up WOTC on the phone and ask what is roleplaying, the style of the games and books being published have an effect that can push people in one direction or another. Just look at the popularity of playing a dark elven ranger...

Chicken and the egg - do the books push the people, or do the people push the books? WotC has made most of it's decisions on what ot publish based upon what they think will sell to the audience.

Yes, let's look at that dark elven ranger for a minute;

Dual-weapon wielding dark elves are from 1e, seen in 1985's Unearthed Arcana. In 1988, The Crystal Shard is published with Drizzt. Someone got the bright idea to show the world that you could do a real publishable story with all this stuff. While it isn't Tolkien, or deathless art, Drizzt has at least some depth, and there's a reasonable plot.

And what do the gamers do with this? Anecdotally, at least, they turned this example of storytelling into the single biggest D&D munchkin craze in the history of the game. Sure, trying to show the gamers that they can tell stories with the game really works wonders, doesn't it?

Simply put - it does not matter what you give them, the players will choose to use it as they see fit. If most of them want action and fights and little plot or role-play, that's what they'll use it for.