D&D 5E Is it just me or does it look like we are getting the "must have feats" once again?

[jadrax]

I have never met a player who wants to play Ice King and absolutely refuses to take Magic Missile because it is force damage or Wall of Stone or Chain Lightning or other D&D spell icons, but if you want to restrict yourself that way, have at it.

One of the players in a friends AD&D campaigns would only research fire spells, to the point that the other PCs actually went on a quest specifically to get him Cone of Cold so he wouldn't suck so much.

After receiving it, he worked with the GM to copy it into his Spellbook as 'Cone of Fire'.

 

[Dausuul]

So, the master of air should be able to control all breathing creatures?

The master of water should be able to control all humanoids (since their bodies are 90% water)?

The master of lightning should be able to control all thinking creatures (since thought uses electricity)?

Of course not. All living creatures use oxidation as a vital part of their metabolic processes; that doesn't make them fire elementals. There is a difference between using an elemental force and being an elemental force. A human body being 80% water doesn't make it 80% a water elemental.

Immunity is a pretty decent way to draw the distinction. Humans use lightning (or electricity, at least) in our brains, but a human doesn't have lightning immunity; we have no particular affinity for it. A blue dragon does have lightning immunity, so a lightning mage would have more influence over the dragon than over a human. For elements like air and water that don't have their own damage types, you'd have to come up with something else, but that's beyond the scope of Elemental Adept.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The master of water should be able to control all humanoids (since their bodies are 90% water)?

If you haven't, you should really watch Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Spoiler

The water bending character learns blood bending, which allows her to directly control a body's blood. This can be used to directly control their actions or just kill them.

 

[KarinsDad]

A blue dragon does have lightning immunity, so a lightning mage would have more influence over the dragon than over a human.

Yup. I definitely draw the line at PCs being able to influence dragons for elemental reasons.

Roleplaying? Flattery? Yup. Sure thing.


Being a Lightning Mage?

Dragon: "PUNY HUMAN, YOU HAVE NO COMPREHENSION OF WHAT REAL LIGHTNING IS ALL ABOUT. YOU ARE LIKE A CHILD PLAYING WITH A CANDLE AND NOT UNDERSTANDING A FOREST FIRE."


I'm more of a "You want to control Dragons, you had better go on quests to find a Dragonorb artifact cause nothing shy of that (or finding something that the Dragon truly craves in its heart) is going to allow a PC to control a dragon." type of DM.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How about Elemental Adepts can make a turn attempt against creatures immune to their chosen element?

IIRC, AD&D 2e priests of elemental spheres could turn the corresponding elementals.

 

[Dausuul]

Yup. I definitely draw the line at PCs being able to influence dragons for elemental reasons.

Roleplaying? Flattery? Yup. Sure thing.

Being a Lightning Mage?

Dragon: "PUNY HUMAN, YOU HAVE NO COMPREHENSION OF WHAT REAL LIGHTNING IS ALL ABOUT. YOU ARE LIKE A CHILD PLAYING WITH A CANDLE AND NOT UNDERSTANDING A FOREST FIRE."

I'm more of a "You want to control Dragons, you had better go on quests to find a Dragonorb artifact cause nothing shy of that (or finding something that the Dragon truly craves in its heart) is going to allow a PC to control a dragon."

"More influence" doesn't mean "total control." Obviously, a first-level wizard specializing in a given element shouldn't be able to just walk up and pwn a high-level elemental foe, and it's unlikely that a PC could take full control of an adult dragon at any level, by any means.

But daze it for a round or two? Absolutely. (After shaking off the effect, the dragon will of course deliver a speech like the one above, because boasting about how invincible they are before getting beaten down by a gang of misfit heroes is what dragons do. See: Smaug, Bilbo, rant to.) The point is that specializing in lightning magic shouldn't cripple you against foes with an affinity for lightning.

 

[jgsugden]

I'd still love to see a list of these "must have" feats, and the ways in which people assume they will be acquired.

For example, saying people think Alertness is must have and every PC would take it at level 4 is quite a bit different than saying Alertness is a feat that spellcasters will want to have by the time they hit level 12, which is also quite different than saying a wizard would have it as one of several feats on their want list and might take it.

To me, "must have" means that almost all 'optimized' PCs in a broadly defined archetype will have the feat by level 12 - at the very latest, and most will get it at 4 , 6 or 8. I don't honestly see any feats that fit that bill.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Elementals aren't a good example for pyromancers - it just shows that there needs to be a spell written such that "Affect Normal Fires does 4d6 damage to fire elementals and 2d6 to creatures with the fire descriptor") or some such.

Should the pyromancer be able to command salamanders?

 

[Dausuul]

I don't honestly see any feats that fit that bill.

Me neither. There are feats that are very good for specific builds, but that's different. Alertness is very strong for assassins. Dual Wielding is essential for a two-weapon fighter who wants to keep up on damage past level 10. But the only feat I would consider a "must-have" is "+2 to your primary stat." That's the benchmark against which all feats must be measured, and it's a pretty high bar.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point is that specializing in lightning magic shouldn't cripple you against foes with an affinity for lightning.

Why not? To me, this is like a Cleric of Light not being able to do much radiant damage against a Celestial of Light. It doesn't matter if the gods lend the power to adversely affect the bad guys, it isn't going to adversely affect the good guys. Otherwise, all of the bad guys would be using radiant damage against radiant creatures.


I find it interesting that for years, people said that spell casters were too powerful and versatile in 1E through 3.5.

Now the first thing some people want is for specialized spell casters to be more powerful and versatile in their specialty in 5E.

The point of balance is to avoid these extremes.

I'm actually kind of glad that WotC has not yet introduced a feat for PCs to either bust through elemental immunity, or to control/influence elemental creatures.


You want to influence elemental creatures? Cast Charm Monster. There is a solution in the game to do so.

You want to damage a creature immune to fire? Cast a Cold or Acid or Force or Bludgeoning or Lightning or Thunder or Slashing or no specific damage type spell. Use Telekinesis to drop a rock on its head. Or buff the fighter so that he can damage it. There are solutions in the game to do so.

Do we really need bigger, better, badder before the PHB even comes out yet?