D&D 5E Is it just me or does it look like we are getting the "must have feats" once again?

[KarinsDad]

Hm. This seems exactly wrong to me. There are almost zero feats other than Elemental Adept that are designed to work around monster defenses.

Zero?

I consider AC to be a monster defense.

I consider hit points to be a monster defense.

I consider a high init mod to be a monster defense.

There are quite a few feats that give advantage or do bonus damage or a variety of other things to take out monsters faster with. Alert, Charger, Crossbow Expert, Dual Wielder, etc. Probably a third of all feats are offensive, hence, they "break" the normal rules against the defenses of monsters.

Elemental Adept is just a special corner case of these more general case anti-monster defense feats (pro-PC offense = anti-NPC defense).

Give WotC time. They will eventually handle most or all of the special defense corner cases.

[sblock=spoiler]
The Dragon in the Starter Set isn't a threat just because of its offensive weaponry, it's a threat because it has so many hit points that the PCs have virtually no chance of defeating it. It has a huge hit point defense.
[/sblock]

 

[evilbob]

I shockingly haven't read through the 17 pages of this thread, but two things seem important to mention:

There are way fewer feats this time around. PHB has like 30 or something? It's like 4 pages (unless I really messed up looking at it). Hopefully they will keep it tight.

As long as there are no +1 to hit feats, that's all that matters. Some may be really good, but only something like +1 to hit was so good that everyone had to take it. Every player doesn't need Alert or Tough. Some might really like it, but it's not 100% have-to-have like something like +1 to every attack roll you make.

Which is exactly the same as +2 to a primary stat... So maybe we DO have required feats, and they are "don't take a feat?!!?"

 

[Dausuul]

Which is exactly the same as +2 to a primary stat... So maybe we DO have required feats, and they are "don't take a feat?!!?"

Yeah, insofar as there is a "must-have" feat in 5E, it's "+2 to your primary stat until you can't do it no more."

That's not to say every PC will max out his/her primary stat ASAP--there were plenty of 4E players who never got Expertise--but it will be very hard as an optimizer to justify not doing it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, insofar as there is a "must-have" feat in 5E, it's "+2 to your primary stat until you can't do it no more."

That's not to say every PC will max out his/her primary stat ASAP--there were plenty of 4E players who never got Expertise--but it will be very hard as an optimizer to justify not doing it.

I am wondering how this will play out at my table.

But, level 4 is a long way away. Probably October. I'm thinking that some feats will appeal to a few players so that maybe 2 out of 6 will take a feat (possibly a feat that gives +1 to an ability score) and the other 4 will take the +2.

Time will tell.

 

[Asatru009]

I shockingly haven't read through the 17 pages of this thread, but two things seem important to mention:

There are way fewer feats this time around. PHB has like 30 or something?

Unless I miscounted, there are 42 feats in total in the 5E PHB.

 

[beej]

2 copper pieces on EA:

cp#1: A nitpick - some people are saying that EA has a reroll. It doesn't - it just treats 1s as 2s. It doesn't really change the discussion much but I feel like it should be pointed out.

cp#2: On houseruling - instead of houseruling the feat, my approach would be to instead houserule things on the DM side. If I feel like there shouldn't be too many fire immune creatures (elementals - yes, devils - no), then as DM I solve that by turning a number of creatures from immune to resistant.

On topic - I've heard that, at some point, there was a feat that granted proficiency to a saving throw. Did that make it into the final PH? If so, then that feat feels closest to a "math fix" for me.

 

[KarinsDad]

On topic - I've heard that, at some point, there was a feat that granted proficiency to a saving throw. Did that make it into the final PH? If so, then that feat feels closest to a "math fix" for me.

It's called Resilient.

Since feats are so expensive (or possibly not even allowed in a given game), it doesn't really look like a math fix. Many PCs will never take it.

The three main saving throw stats look like they might be Con, Dex, and Wis. I don't see any classes that get even 2 of these, so I doubt it is a math fix. If it were, then PCs would need to take it twice to cover all 3 bases. Costly.

It really looks like PCs will often have weak saves in two of the top three here. Players might have to save their Inspirations at higher levels to help for saves.

 

[Obryn]

I guess we'll have to see what monster save DCs look like in the final version. In the bestiary, I found exactly two monsters with Wisdom save DCs of 18 or higher: Asmodeus and the pit fiend. Everything else was DC 15 or lower. And the fighter could easily have +1 or +2 on Wisdom saves with no feat investment, just from starting stats.

Well, the cr16 blue dragon has a wisdom save DC of 17 which takes you out of the fight until you hit it.

So if you plan to tackle dragons, which is not unreasonable in a game about dungeons and dragons... Looks kinda mandatory to me, given that tougher dragons will have it even higher.

 

[Dausuul]

It's called Resilient.

Since feats are so expensive (or possibly not even allowed in a given game), it doesn't really look like a math fix. Many PCs will never take it.

The three main saving throw stats look like they might be Con, Dex, and Wis. I don't see any classes that get even 2 of these, so I doubt it is a math fix. If it were, then PCs would need to take it twice to cover all 3 bases. Costly.

I'd call it four bases, not three. The minor saves (Str, Int, Cha) may not be as common, but put them together and I think they're the equal of a major save. If your DM is fond of playing illusion games, you may find that Int save coming into play more than you expect.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd call it four bases, not three. The minor saves (Str, Int, Cha) may not be as common, but put them together and I think they're the equal of a major save. If your DM is fond of playing illusion games, you may find that Int save coming into play more than you expect.

Yes, but one of the three minors is covered.

So, instead of 1 out of 3 majors, it still becomes 1.33/4 majors or 1 out of 3 (put another way, 1 out of 3 majors is covered and 1 out of 3 minors is covered).