Is it possible to be successful without leaders?
- Thread starter ProdigalTim
- Start date
TheNovaLord
First Post
Yep
we just finsihed the weekend in the realms for living LFR
warlock
rogue
ranger of missile
wizard
fighter
damage output per round was just enourmous
only healing was the warlock, had had intitate faith feat and the odd healing potion.
no deaths, the odd character knocked unconcious.
we just finsihed the weekend in the realms for living LFR
warlock
rogue
ranger of missile
wizard
fighter
damage output per round was just enourmous
only healing was the warlock, had had intitate faith feat and the odd healing potion.
no deaths, the odd character knocked unconcious.
Just for information, potions are made with the ritual caster feat (Brew Potion), and multi classing into a leader gets you a heal once per DAY.
ElCucuy
First Post
Our group plays with out a Leader. We have five players (Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard). Two players are veterans, one has played 2-3 campaigns before, and the last two are first-timers. Never played any RPG at all.
Here is how it plays out:
1) Healing Potions have become very very useful.
2) The Paladin concentrates very highly on defense and drawing attacks to himself. His Lay on Hands is usually placed on himself, but he tries to save it as long as possible for characters that may be out of surges.
3) Battles are bloody and hard-won. Everyone is low or out of healing surges by the end of the adventure.
4) We are playing through the Scales of War adventure path, with only stylistic changes to the encounters. The effectiveness of the enemies remains the same.
5) The Warlock is played as a combo Striker/Controller, and the Wizard is played more as an AOE Striker than anything.
6) The Paladin's ability choices tend to be towards abilities that grant defense or healing. His damage output is very minimal. He just tries to stay alive and keep the bad guys off his allies. He is considering multi-classing into Warlord for some extra healing because there are battles where it would be needed.
7) The combination of (essentially) 1 Defender and 4 Strikers is pretty devastating. Enemies are not in play for very long before this group can take them down.
8) In the interest of full disclosure, they have had one death. The Paladin died in the Siege of Bordrin's Watch in the room where they save the dwarf paladin. But it was more due to bad rolls than anything...he had about 2/3 of his surges remaining when he died.
So what I've learned is that it's definitely do-able. Having two veteran players to keep the group's tactics strong is a huge plus. This group works like a well-oiled machine. They are constantly working towards flanking, guiding enemies into clusters for AOE's, taking heat off the paladin when he's in over his head, etc.
We've played D&D (I and the two veteran players) since 1st edition and have never had a truly successful group w/o a cleric or other healer. This is the first group that is viable w/o a cleric. Are the battles tougher? Absolutely. But they are perfectly able to pull it off so far, and I haven't had to pull any punches whatsoever.
El Cucuy
Here is how it plays out:
1) Healing Potions have become very very useful.
2) The Paladin concentrates very highly on defense and drawing attacks to himself. His Lay on Hands is usually placed on himself, but he tries to save it as long as possible for characters that may be out of surges.
3) Battles are bloody and hard-won. Everyone is low or out of healing surges by the end of the adventure.
4) We are playing through the Scales of War adventure path, with only stylistic changes to the encounters. The effectiveness of the enemies remains the same.
5) The Warlock is played as a combo Striker/Controller, and the Wizard is played more as an AOE Striker than anything.
6) The Paladin's ability choices tend to be towards abilities that grant defense or healing. His damage output is very minimal. He just tries to stay alive and keep the bad guys off his allies. He is considering multi-classing into Warlord for some extra healing because there are battles where it would be needed.
7) The combination of (essentially) 1 Defender and 4 Strikers is pretty devastating. Enemies are not in play for very long before this group can take them down.
8) In the interest of full disclosure, they have had one death. The Paladin died in the Siege of Bordrin's Watch in the room where they save the dwarf paladin. But it was more due to bad rolls than anything...he had about 2/3 of his surges remaining when he died.
So what I've learned is that it's definitely do-able. Having two veteran players to keep the group's tactics strong is a huge plus. This group works like a well-oiled machine. They are constantly working towards flanking, guiding enemies into clusters for AOE's, taking heat off the paladin when he's in over his head, etc.
We've played D&D (I and the two veteran players) since 1st edition and have never had a truly successful group w/o a cleric or other healer. This is the first group that is viable w/o a cleric. Are the battles tougher? Absolutely. But they are perfectly able to pull it off so far, and I haven't had to pull any punches whatsoever.
El Cucuy
RyvenCedrylle
First Post
Wonky Healing
(I'm not too hot with HTML, so mods - I apologize for the same post across two threads. Feel free to kill the first one if you like.
Anyway...)
Depending on how your group feels about healing and simulationism, you may want to consider what I call 'environmental healing' or morale boosts. Now that a warlord can 'heal' you with a hearty slap on the back and a cliched line, it opens up a whole world of other things that might 'heal' you.
1) Consider a fight in a town; a PC takes cover behind a house to avoid combat temporarily. A young non-jailbait age woman comes out of the house, makes quick with the gauze and offers her thanks for his heroics with a quick peck on the cheek. Bam. 'Inspiring Word.' The PC, emboldened to impress the coquette picks up a healing surge and charges back into the fray.
2) Also consider the situation of a PC felling the major foe in combat. Sure there are a half-dozen minions and a couple non-minions to mop up, but the tide has clearly shifted; the foes begin to visibly panic. The PC who dropped the BBEG gets a healing surge as he can see the end of the combat is near.
Two such things per combat that fit in with the fluff of the fight and you've got a leader. YMMV.
(I'm not too hot with HTML, so mods - I apologize for the same post across two threads. Feel free to kill the first one if you like.
Anyway...)
Depending on how your group feels about healing and simulationism, you may want to consider what I call 'environmental healing' or morale boosts. Now that a warlord can 'heal' you with a hearty slap on the back and a cliched line, it opens up a whole world of other things that might 'heal' you.
1) Consider a fight in a town; a PC takes cover behind a house to avoid combat temporarily. A young non-jailbait age woman comes out of the house, makes quick with the gauze and offers her thanks for his heroics with a quick peck on the cheek. Bam. 'Inspiring Word.' The PC, emboldened to impress the coquette picks up a healing surge and charges back into the fray.
2) Also consider the situation of a PC felling the major foe in combat. Sure there are a half-dozen minions and a couple non-minions to mop up, but the tide has clearly shifted; the foes begin to visibly panic. The PC who dropped the BBEG gets a healing surge as he can see the end of the combat is near.
Two such things per combat that fit in with the fluff of the fight and you've got a leader. YMMV.
Our group has gone from levels 1 to 8 without a leader at any point and not one character death. Ours is a group with a Feylock multiclassed into Wizard. A wizard focused on conditional spells like sleep. A sword/shield fighter, and a human rogue brutal scoundrel.
I have noticed that the fighter pretty much has to tank every battle, and is often on the brink of death. The rogue has dropped below 0 frequently as well, but as of yet nothing that would indicate the necessities of a Leader.
I have noticed that the fighter pretty much has to tank every battle, and is often on the brink of death. The rogue has dropped below 0 frequently as well, but as of yet nothing that would indicate the necessities of a Leader.
ProdigalTim
First Post
Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll definitely be bringing up some of your points with our DM if no one ends up switching to a leader. In particular, I'll talk with him about being able to rest regularly, as, from what I gather from the above, it seems our biggest detriment will be in having to rely on inefficient and action-consuming potion based heals. Seems like our surges will run out more quickly than the average group's.
As for NPC healing, knowing our DM I think he'd be more amenable to a set, defined, story based healer joining us as opposed to just hiring some random dude to tag along. I'll look in to that.
(BTW: I have the shaman and martial artist PDFs but I don't think I'm allowed to post them, right?)
As for NPC healing, knowing our DM I think he'd be more amenable to a set, defined, story based healer joining us as opposed to just hiring some random dude to tag along. I'll look in to that.
(BTW: I have the shaman and martial artist PDFs but I don't think I'm allowed to post them, right?)
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
If they're not your work, then no, you shouldn't post them here, as that would be illegally pirating the material. This applies if they are a professional production, and normally cost money to obtain.
If they were produced as homebrew material (ie not to be paid for) then providing a link to where they may be found and crediting their creator is normally considering polite, rather than just reposting it.
Thanee
First Post
That's what I did, since the party consists of four characters only (and five is the standard size all the encounters are based on), it also seemed easiest to just drop an NPC into the party to accompany them.
Bye
Thanee
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