Is it possible to make up for less magic with higher ability scores?

[S'mon]

Not really. The only difference at 7th level is 2 points of AC. The biggest difference at all will be 10 points, as far as armor is concerned. Emrikol is correct that PC's will almost always get hit anyway. At least with the primary attacks. The only real difference is how much power attack the monster can dump in.

As I said, up to about 10th level, the differences are very, very minor. After 10th the ball game changes.

Clearly your game is different from mine! I find 2 pts of AC is more typically 'hit on 16' vs 'hit on 18', which makes a huge difference vs multiple foes. Or with 3.5 Power Attack that's 4 more damage each attack. But I agree it's above 9th level that the difference really kicks in.

 

[Blue]

Little magic made a big difference at high levels.

I ran a lower magic campaign for about five years, and reset and am playing in the same world but 80 years later. By low magic, I mean character wealth was low compared to book wealth, and except for low level potions and scrolls any other magic items were more find-as-find-can or find-a-crafter-and-commission.

At lower levels it worked just fine, when the balance of magic items wasn't all that off. By campaign end at 12th level it was quite a big deal. ACs were pitiful. Even the super defensive monk with the combat expertise was getting hit half the time by joe enemy, and the barbarian/ranger/fighter had an AC of 16 while raging. Normal book monsters could hit them all the time, and anything with power attack could smear them. They had problems hitting monsters, though not as bad. DR was a bigger issue then otherwise. I specifically cut down on the number of casters against them doing things like elemental damage because no one had resistances, and many didn't even have a cloak of resistance or the like.

All in all, it was definitely felt. I would recommend increasing other bonuses, and possibly instituting a defense bonus sort of variant - I think unearthed arcana had one.

Good luck,
=Blue(23)

 

[delericho]

The danger with low-magic games comes with those things that the magic using classes will be able to do that the non-magic using classes won't be able to emulate or counter. I'm not talking things like stat-boosts or damage-dealing effects, but rather those 'utility' spells that are so useful.

A 7th level Wizard has access to Improved Invisibility and Fly. Combine those two, and he can wipe the floor with any low-magic Fighter, Rogue, or similar.

So, for a low-magic game to really work, you need to not only give ability boosts to compensate (or, actually, you don't need to at all... just adjust ELs instead), but you also need to keep a lid on the powers of the spellcasters in the group, to ensure they don't just run away with the game.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Kamikaze Midget has posted a system like this, with granted level-based Enhancement bonuses to ability scores, attack rolls and damage and resistance bonuses to saves. Basiclly replacing the 'big 6' magic items.

Link?

 

[gizmo33]

A 7th level Wizard has access to Improved Invisibility and Fly. Combine those two, and he can wipe the floor with any low-magic Fighter, Rogue, or similar.

IME the circumstances matter a lot in the case of PvP-type thought experiments - for example, you're assuming 2 free rounds of spell casting AFAICT. I think it would go a lot differently if you gave the rogue two free rounds instead. After all, Spot and Listen are not class skills for wizards.

In a party-type environment (non PvP), fighters have more endurance. If, as a DM, you're accustomed to running a "1 encounter per day" type game, then that's way different than a more dungeon-crawl type setting where a wizard who instinctively burns his higher level spells with every encounter is going to be in trouble.

 

[Voadam]

Any of you have any experience with lower magic item games where the DM gave higher character ability scores/feats/abilities instead?

Do you think it would work?

I'm wondering how to proceed with my next lower magic game.

Thanks for any comments.

jh

I've played in a 5th level game where we had no money to start after a jail break. I had a shiv (makeshift dagger), I think some others had quarterstaves.

We had high stats and were gestalt. My orc UA variant wolf barbarian/wilderness rogue felt more than competent and up to the challenges we faced.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

My vote is no!

My vote is no, I don't think characters need higher ability scores to make up for lack of magic. What I've done in my game is give a class defense bonus that stacks with armour. Made the dodge feat stackable and applicable to all enemies, monks still get their wis mod to AC and their class mod.

I make the magic items I do have increase as the characters increase in level. Finally, I don't have alot of magical or out of the ordinary creatures for the pcs to fight.

It's usually humanoids with class levels, some aberrations and magical animals, that type of thing. Dragons do exist but it truly requires a weapon of singular and unique properties to hurt it.

I also end my campaigns about 12th level anyway.

 

[Hussar]

Clearly your game is different from mine! I find 2 pts of AC is more typically 'hit on 16' vs 'hit on 18', which makes a huge difference vs multiple foes. Or with 3.5 Power Attack that's 4 more damage each attack. But I agree it's above 9th level that the difference really kicks in.

That's only 4 more damage if the baddie is using a two handed weapon. Otherwise it's just 2 points. Depends if you use a lot of humanoid opponents or a lot of critters I suppose. Critters don't usually get that 2 for 1 deal.

Again, a 10% shift in getting hit isn't a big deal. It just means you get hit 10% more. And, you shouldn't have a 2 point difference if you use the higher stat buy. Dex covers that quite nicely for most PC's. Saving throws are covered by having stat bonuses, meaning that the ubiquitous cloaks of resistance are not as necessary.

Is a fully loaded fighter at 7th level stronger than a non-magic 7th level fighter? Of course. Is he stronger than an 8th level fighter? Possibly equal, but, not really. Is he stronger than a 7th level fighter with effectively 16-20k worth of stat boost items? Again, not really.

 

[buzz]

No one's mentioned Iron Heroes yet?

Ability scores tipped towards the high end is one of the (many) ways IH re-balances magic-less PCs for D&D.

 

[S'mon]

Again, a 10% shift in getting hit isn't a big deal. It just means you get hit 10% more.

You're not a statistician then? If it's "hit on a 20" vs "hit on an 18", you're being hit 3 times as often, or 200% more.