D&D 5E Is It Time to Partition Ritual and Non-Ritual Spells?

[Falling Icicle]

I will say that also, in world-building terms, free Rituals would break that sense of exoticism magic has - if a free ritual exists to cure disease, why isn't everyone healthy? If it costs gold, or rare ingredients, then the economics works.

There are some things I think should cost resources, even if most rituals do not. Some spells, like Raise Dead, have always had a resource cost. I wouldn't want things like that to be free.

 

[Falling Icicle]

What if some spells could be used as either prepared spells or rituals, but there were also some spells that were ritual-only?

I think Raise Dead is a great example of this, since it takes an hour to cast and costs an expensive component anyway. Other examples are spells that have always had long casting times, like Planar Binding, Control Weather, Guards and Wards, and so forth. I think those spells would work well as ritual-only spells that can't be prepared.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ritual spells aren't an alien concept in pre-4E editions, they were present in scrolls, wands and potions. In 3E in particular, utility spells were most often relegated to a scroll.

This is true. But I think there is still a significant difference when they were tied to equipment. Maybe some DM can go very easy on equipment, but in general you shouldn't expect a Wizard to enter a dungeon with a load of a scroll or two for each spell of a hundred or so that she knows. Rituals are equivalent to being able to scribe a scroll on the fly as long as you use it immediately. Unless you run out of money, you never run out of scrolls and the strategic (i.e. downtime planning of what to scribe) side of scribing scrolls is totally removed.

I forgot to make clear however, that overall I like having rituals in 5e. Because I don't necessarily always want that strategic side I just mentioned to be part of every campaign we play. I like having rituals rules in the core books (and I think the best design decision they made about them is "prepared spells can be cast as rituals by Clerics" VS "known spells can be cast as rituals by Wizards) but I would very much prefer them to be optional, and in no way I would like spells to be "siloed" into "dailies" VS "rituals", for the reasons in my previous post.

 

[Li Shenron]

Good points. I'd give you xp for your well thought out rebuttal but it won't let me.

Thanks! Same here, can't xp you yet but I would.

What if some spells could be used as either prepared spells or rituals, but there were also some spells that were ritual-only?

I think Raise Dead is a great example of this, since it takes an hour to cast and costs an expensive component anyway. Other examples are spells that have always had long casting times, like Planar Binding, Control Weather, Guards and Wards, and so forth. I think those spells would work well as ritual-only spells that can't be prepared.

I think that if some spells were rituals-only, then they need to be chosen very carefully.

Raise Dead as a spell (whatever the casting time) is still limited by the number of slots per day.

Raise Dead as a ritual (with the current rules) is unlimited.

Of course there is still only 24 hours in the day, so some kind of limit exists, and if you are not in a rush you can prepare as many Raise Dead as you need tomorrow and then again...

I am not convinced by the rationale "rituals acknowledge that some spells are not worth preparing". While it is true that some spells are not worth preparing, the designers should let the players decide, instead of assuming that preparing Raise Dead is "wrong" and making it ritual-only.

 

[variant]

Rituals need to be optional if they exist at all. I don't want them nerfing classes to include rules that many may not use.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

I believe that Ritual Spells should be detached from Combat Spells and that they should have one or more complex skill checks, a non-trivial resource cost and should take a non-trivial amount of time to perform.

One of my favorite mental images of adventurers using a ritual is one where the majority of the party is desperately trying to hold off a superior force at a bottleneck while a wizard is frantically trying to prepare a teleport circle for the group's escape.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

This is true. But I think there is still a significant difference when they were tied to equipment. Maybe some DM can go very easy on equipment, but in general you shouldn't expect a Wizard to enter a dungeon with a load of a scroll or two for each spell of a hundred or so that she knows. Rituals are equivalent to being able to scribe a scroll on the fly as long as you use it immediately. Unless you run out of money, you never run out of scrolls and the strategic (i.e. downtime planning of what to scribe) side of scribing scrolls is totally removed.

I understand your point about strategic choices for scrolls, but as a sensible compromise, could it be that the specific components for a ritual must be prepared/purchased in advance? It's equivalent to scribing a scroll in that way, such that when you're back in town you must think about what to spend your GP on carefully - indeed if the components you want are readily available. I think this would add flavour, and rituals would remain distinct from scrolls due to their casting time.

 

[MoonSong]

Rituals need to be optional if they exist at all. I don't want them nerfing classes to include rules that many may not use.

I second that.

I believe that Ritual Spells should be detached from Combat Spells and that they should have one or more complex skill checks, a non-trivial resource cost and should take a non-trivial amount of time to perform.

One of my favorite mental images of adventurers using a ritual is one where the majority of the party is desperately trying to hold off a superior force at a bottleneck while a wizard is frantically trying to prepare a teleport circle for the group's escape.

The current set-up and the normal rules for casting of elaborate spells still take many minutes to cast. The situation you present is still possible with them, you don't need to silo rituals for that.

In fact I hate the idea of siloing, creating the artficial "combat/non-combat" divide benefits nobody but those players who obsess with combat and with optimizing for combat, and it removes the possibility of using spells on creative ways. Also putting every single spell that doesn't causes damage on the ritual is a HUGE NERF for sorcerers.

You see, ritual casting and sorcerers don't mesh well, sorcerers are supossed to be more about innate magic and self-learning, while rituals are precise mechanical and reliant on tradition. If any non-combat spell becomes a ritual and only a ritual, you are not only giving wizards unlimited magic, you are also forcing evey sorcerer to carry a ritual book or become a third rate caster. "Yes I'm a sorcerer, magic flows through my veins and in order for me to do anything that isn't frying a a kobold I need the same exact book and components any wizard, no actually any mook with the ritual caster feat would use". Doesn't sound apealing at all, specially since by the dev team record they'll be bent on giving the sorcerer the same exact hit point and attack progression (if not actually giving them a worse one) and call it a day despite the fact their magic is at most one tenth as powerful as a wizard's with things as they are.

On any case it becomes a lose/lose situation for sorcerers, you either suck or give up your identity (which also sucks).

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

The current set-up and the normal rules for casting of elaborate spells still take many minutes to cast. The situation you present is still possible with them, you don't need to silo rituals for that.

In fact I hate the idea of siloing, creating the artficial "combat/non-combat" divide benefits nobody but those players who obsess with combat and with optimizing for combat, and it removes the possibility of using spells on creative ways. Also putting every single spell that doesn't causes damage on the ritual is a HUGE NERF for sorcerers.

I'm not suggesting that Rituals be siloed like how 4e siloed combat and utility spells or that all non-damaging spells should become Rituals.

I just want to have more complex magic that doesn't just take prepare spell in a level X spell slot or expend a level X spell slot. I want to have the rules to pull off having a group of wizards or sorcerers or mix of them casting a ritual together where they do things like bring down a giant meteor on an army en masse.

You see, ritual casting and sorcerers don't mesh well, sorcerers are supossed to be more about innate magic and self-learning, while rituals are precise mechanical and reliant on tradition. If any non-combat spell becomes a ritual and only a ritual, you are not only giving wizards unlimited magic, you are also forcing evey sorcerer to carry a ritual book or become a third rate caster. "Yes I'm a sorcerer, magic flows through my veins and in order for me to do anything that isn't frying a a kobold I need the same exact book and components any wizard, no actually any mook with the ritual caster feat would use". Doesn't sound apealing at all, specially since by the dev team record they'll be bent on giving the sorcerer the same exact hit point and attack progression (if not actually giving them a worse one) and call it a day despite the fact their magic is at most one tenth as powerful as a wizard's with things as they are.

I do not believe that an "Instinctive Spellcaster" would or should need a spellbook to perform rituals; in fact they should have instinctive knowledge and understanding of how to cast Rituals. A Wizard might research and write into his spellbook that by drawing a specific magic circle along with performing certain hand symbols and chanting a certain phrase allows him to open a teleportation portal, but a Sorcerer would have a instinctive knowledge that by drawing this magic circle and performing these hands symbols and chanting that phrase that a teleportation portal will open.

On any case it becomes a lose/lose situation for sorcerers, you either suck or give up your identity (which also sucks).

You sound like you have decided that the Sorcerer can't have his own way of accessing and performing Rituals.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Rituals should be allowed for non-wizards. Like The Grey Mouser or even John Constantine. One of the best things 4e did - and one of the Essentials changes that annoys me - is introduced people who can only cast through ceremonial magic to D&D. This not only matches myth, it allows for worlds that don't often have six-second spellcasters but people can still do some magic. (This really helps if you want to play in Middle Earth).