Is kicking a helpless offender unconscious brutal?

[Elder-Basilisk]

Was it brutal? Yes.

Was it necessarily evil? No.

Was it consistent with a character who's on the LN side of LE? Absolutely. (And the character might even have enjoyed it).

Might the actions have been consistent with non-evil or even good characters? Probably. You had a villain who was not going to surrender or allow himself to be bound. There are three basic choices: kill him, let him go, beat him unconscious. The last choice may be brutal but that doesn't mean that it won't be employed by good characters.

Should your character invest in some masterwork manacles with a good lock? Yes. (You can beat a foe unconscious but you can't predict when he'll wake up so you still need a good means of holding him and unless you have good use rope skills, masterwork manacles are a good way of doing that).

A really evil character might have done the same, tortured him for information and then killed him and used speak with dead to confirm the information.

Another evil character might have simply killed him and used Speak With Dead on his corpse because you're more likely to get accurate answers that way.

And both of these evil characters would have mutilated the body and left it somewhere that other fire knives and assorted low-lifes would see it and get the "don't f@$# with us" message.

Was the squeamish CG bard justified in leaving the party over this. Probably. Then again, there are all sorts of characters who don't really agree enough to adventure together. You just finally encountered a situation that made this clear to your group.

 

[takyris]

There are three basic choices: kill him, let him go, beat him unconscious. The last choice may be brutal but that doesn't mean that it won't be employed by good characters.

And it's arguably more "good" than killing him.

You can beat a foe unconscious but you can't predict when he'll wake up...

Actually, according to the rules, he doesn't wake up until that ol' subdual damage wears off, so if you keep pounding on unconscious-guy for an hour or so, power-attacking to the best of your ability, you have, according to the rules, an ironclad guarantee that he's out for at least a day or so. That's exact enough for me...

"Hey, it's morning. Time for our morning 'Keep this dude unconscious all day' workout." (whompawhompawhompawhompawhompa)

And, according to the rules, this never results in any actual physical harm to the dude.

Ah, reductio ad absurdem...

 

[Talon5]

I would rather have the crap kicked out of me then be murdered.

Evil men will handcuff or tie people up and attack them, don't try to justify that in your own head as being a good guy.

In D&D the rules are pretty slanted towards killing. Watch how Aragorn fights in the LotRs movie- there are a lot of kicks and punchs. To my way of understanding a sword or med evil fight like this would be the norm, try that in D&D and your either wasting attacks or trying to get yourself killed.

Trying to capture the man was very cool. Fighting with the CG Bard over what you were doing- well that's only understandable if you guys kept beating on Mr Assassin after he was out/unconscious.

btw- our common tactic is to question the corpses after the fight, get more reliable information that way- the dead don't lie.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, according to the rules, he doesn't wake up until that ol' subdual damage wears off, so if you keep pounding on unconscious-guy for an hour or so, power-attacking to the best of your ability, you have, according to the rules, an ironclad guarantee that he's out for at least a day or so. That's exact enough for me...

Well, you can do that. On the other hand, it's not exactly rocket science. Since you don't know how many hit points the guy had to start with or what level he is, beating him for 140 points of nonlethal damage will keep a first level foe unconscious till he dies of thirst and will keep a 10th level foe unconscious until sometime during the night--exactly the right time for an escape attempt. You could put 480 points of non-lethal damage into your foe but then you'll be doing either a LOT of healing or a LOT of waiting if you want to question a non-high level foe before he starves to death.

"Hey, it's morning. Time for our morning 'Keep this dude unconscious all day' workout." (whompawhompawhompawhompawhompa)

Which works just fine as long as he's still there in the morning. But if he isn't still there in the morning, (or if the evil cultist used his Death Touch ability on himself to commit suicide) it's too late.

And, according to the rules, this never results in any actual physical harm to the dude.

Make that say "permanent and direct physical harm" and you'd be right. Of course, reasonable DMs might decide that the rules aren't intended to simulate that and alter those rules on an ad-hoc basis. Other DMs who want to remain strictly within the rules might look up starvation and thirst rules and apply them.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As others have pointed out, an enemy that isn't unconscious or dead is still a lethal threat in the D&D world. There is no halfway. You can't punch someone hard in the gut and expect them to crumple to the ground in pain. They're either unconscious, dead, or fully-operational.

That said, beating a foe unconscious is one of the few ways to subdue a foe without killing him, and unless torture is involved, is not evil in and of itself.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Make that say "permanent and direct physical harm" and you'd be right. Of course, reasonable DMs might decide that the rules aren't intended to simulate that and alter those rules on an ad-hoc basis. Other DMs who want to remain strictly within the rules might look up starvation and thirst rules and apply them.

I could have sworn that that subdual damage converted to lethal damage at some point, so that a PC could die from too much subdual damage. Am I imagining things?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Not in general. Some conditions that deal non-lethal damage to conscious targets start dealing lethal damage to unconscious ones. Starvation, thirst, and weather effects work that way IIRC. However, there's no general rule on the subject.

I could have sworn that that subdual damage converted to lethal damage at some point, so that a PC could die from too much subdual damage. Am I imagining things?