Is killing a Goblin who begs for mercy evil?
Since this thread was necro'ed, I wondered...
The evil of killing is particular in that you can't compensate it. If one burns your house, he can repair the damage (by paying to repair your house). If one kills you, then there is nothing to be done IRL to make you whole.
In a fantasy setting were resurrection is available (even if extremely expansive), would it carry the same weight?
Nobleman #1, entering the gentleman's club: "Hi guys, I killed John again yesterday at the MusketQuest range, he won't join us for the habitual pool game."
Nobleman #2: "well that sucks, I have a party scheduled on Friday!"
Nobleman #3: "I killed Robert in a duel yesterday and I had the church plan a raising ceremony tomorrow, maybe we could accomodate both raises to occur on the same day?"
Nobleman #1: "Sure, i missed the debutante ball last time I was killed and I was really infuriated by it. I am pretty sure John would like it if he's raised in time."
Meanwhile, at Nobleman #1's manor:
Mum of #1: "Honey, our son is asking for an increase to his allowance, he has a lot of 500 gp diamonds to buy... I hope he'll introduce his girlfriend to us soon!"
Dad of #1 (remembering his dissolute youth): "Erm... yes, let's send him some more money but don't get your expectations too high..."
If you think 5e lacks a money sink, introduce... casual killing as a social activity for the landed gentry.
The evil of killing is particular in that you can't compensate it. If one burns your house, he can repair the damage (by paying to repair your house). If one kills you, then there is nothing to be done IRL to make you whole.
In a fantasy setting were resurrection is available (even if extremely expansive), would it carry the same weight?
Nobleman #1, entering the gentleman's club: "Hi guys, I killed John again yesterday at the MusketQuest range, he won't join us for the habitual pool game."
Nobleman #2: "well that sucks, I have a party scheduled on Friday!"
Nobleman #3: "I killed Robert in a duel yesterday and I had the church plan a raising ceremony tomorrow, maybe we could accomodate both raises to occur on the same day?"
Nobleman #1: "Sure, i missed the debutante ball last time I was killed and I was really infuriated by it. I am pretty sure John would like it if he's raised in time."
Meanwhile, at Nobleman #1's manor:
Mum of #1: "Honey, our son is asking for an increase to his allowance, he has a lot of 500 gp diamonds to buy... I hope he'll introduce his girlfriend to us soon!"
Dad of #1 (remembering his dissolute youth): "Erm... yes, let's send him some more money but don't get your expectations too high..."
If you think 5e lacks a money sink, introduce... casual killing as a social activity for the landed gentry.
d24454_modern
Explorer
Isn’t resurrection typically a high-level spell meaning that only a handful of people can do it in any given setting?
It might as well be “unforgivable” if the victim can’t be resurrected anyways.
doctorhook
Legend
Yeah I like how PF2e (not sure about PF1) lays out the edicts and anathemas for each religious character. It sidesteps a lot of the alignment questions and gives you very specific Dos and Do Nots.
PF1 had codes and edicts as well. Torag in particular got softened greatly with the kill all goblins part of the dogma being removed to make room for warm fuzzy goblins accepted by society. Fluff-wise goblins becoming a PC race was one of the top reasons PF2 was rejected and organized play died in my area.
doctorhook
Legend
I do lament the “everything must be cute and friendly” approach of some games over the past few years. That said, goblin characters have always been popular as hell as anti-hero characters, so I can appreciate why they’re core now. And cooking racial strife into the game (dwarf religion demanding “kill all goblins”) does come awfully close to some very uncomfortable topics in reality, so I can see why they wanted to downplay that.
Total transparency: I didn't read the thread.
Here's the thing: if you as GM are treating the NE shopkeeper differently than the NE goblin (or whatever) you are already failing at using alignment as a useful play tool. Just drop it. You aren't using alignment, you are using race and culture to define "good" and are just asking for trouble.
BUT if you actually want to make the NE shopkeeper and NE goblins morally equivalent in D&D, you can do that but you need to divorce it from actions such as lying versus murdering farmers. Instead you need to make them actually ALIGNED to the NE forces in the cosmos. Maybe that's an ideal. Maybe it is a specific God. But it means that the cosmos defines what NE is, not the person. It is more like a zodiac sign, and how much you adhere to it impacts your post mortal existence.
Alignment as a "personality and morality descriptor" is just terrible. If you want to use is it the fiction and as a game mechanic, you need to give it concrete meaning.
Here's the thing: if you as GM are treating the NE shopkeeper differently than the NE goblin (or whatever) you are already failing at using alignment as a useful play tool. Just drop it. You aren't using alignment, you are using race and culture to define "good" and are just asking for trouble.
BUT if you actually want to make the NE shopkeeper and NE goblins morally equivalent in D&D, you can do that but you need to divorce it from actions such as lying versus murdering farmers. Instead you need to make them actually ALIGNED to the NE forces in the cosmos. Maybe that's an ideal. Maybe it is a specific God. But it means that the cosmos defines what NE is, not the person. It is more like a zodiac sign, and how much you adhere to it impacts your post mortal existence.
Alignment as a "personality and morality descriptor" is just terrible. If you want to use is it the fiction and as a game mechanic, you need to give it concrete meaning.
John R Davis
Hero
That's why they have Detect Evil.
If the goblin Detects as Evil, then it is 100% evil, and is only pretending to surrender so it can works it's foulness later on.
If it isn't Evil then it should have the chance to redeem itself, somehow.
Just make sure that only Evil things detect as Evil.
This debate has run for 50 years and will likely run for another 50.
It's a game also remember.
If the goblin Detects as Evil, then it is 100% evil, and is only pretending to surrender so it can works it's foulness later on.
If it isn't Evil then it should have the chance to redeem itself, somehow.
Just make sure that only Evil things detect as Evil.
This debate has run for 50 years and will likely run for another 50.
It's a game also remember.
Interesting.
So, I was going to be a smarty pants and point out that that's not what "detect evil" does in 5E but then I decided to scroll up just to double check and discover that, indeed, this is a Pathfinder thread. So I checked the Archives and discovered that in PF1 a typical (1 HD) goblin will not ping with Detect Evil -- it needs at least 5 HD/class levels. In PF2 it is 6th level or higher only. unless the goblin is a caster, anyway. Starfinder does not appear to have a "detect evil/alignment" spell.
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