Is killing something Good an inherently Evil act?

[Malic]

In this setup I think killing either the Good or Evil outsider counts as self defence and therefore Neutral, especially if their stated aim is to encourage the End of the World. Trying to get them to go away and stay away somehow would be more good.

Helping them achieve their goal is harder ... is it Good if you believe it really will lead to Heaven on Earth? Is it Evil to risk everyone's lives if this outcome is not assured?

Presumably the same applies to PC use of any summoning or other extraplanar spells.

Personally I think the sincere belief and intention of the person determines good or evil here, but doesn't D&D RAW have absolute alignments based on actions?

For divine casters and especially paladins, what is the nature of the 'goodness' they serve? If it is associated with a Good god or maybe even the plane of heaven, opposing the End of the World / closer connection with the plane may affect their access to powers, though I don't think it would actually make them Evil.

Very cool setup BTW!

 

[Psion]

Obviously killing itself isn't evil, else all PCs would be evil.

My take:

It depends entirely on intent. You can't really determine if an act is evil (or rather, demonstrates evil in the actor) without knowing the reason that the actor did it.

On the flip side, is killing an Evil thing an inherently Good act?

Not universally, no. You might even say that it's never a good thing, just a forgivible/justifiable thing. But even then, not universally. Killing someone who is not a threat to you or anyone else you know of might not be justifiable at all.

Spoiler

Long-Winded Spoiler Explanation: Because according to the Blood War, fiends kill things that are Evil all the time, and yet remain Evil...so how is killing something that is Good different?

They would just as soon slaughter innocents. They would torture their foes to death. Yeah, I honestly don't think there is much room for confusion here.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Depends on intent and motivation. In your examples, both were evil acts (IMO). Killing things "just because" is evil (IMO).

 

[Zappo]

Is killing an exemplar (alignment-bound Outsider) the same as killing a sentient, free-willed mortal? Outsiders have thoughts and feelings, but their capacity for self-determination is, at least, severely constrained, and is often assumed to be non-existent. Celestials do not choose to be Good, nor do Fiends choose Evil.

One commonly-used criteria of personhood is free will. Is the killing of an entity that lacks this trait the same as killing a man?

Interesting! Outsiders definitely have free will; they can't act against their alignment, but they are otherwise free to do whatever they want. I agree that this is a severe constraint, but it isn't the same as being, say, a golem or a zombie. Destroying a golem or a zombie isn't more Evil than wracking a car, to the point where we use the term "destroy" rather than "kill" for those creatures. Similarly, killing animals is usually Neutral as well (at least, in a medieval-ish context). So it seems that free will is indeed an important quality in determining the morality of a killing, but outsiders don't completely lack it. So why would killing a celestial be a greatly Evil act? Shouldn't it be little worse than killing, say, an animal?

I think that this is where the absolutist elements of D&D's alignments come into play. In D&D, Good and Evil are actual forces, like gravity or electromagnetism. They can be detected and measured; they can even be used to produce various useful effects. Leaving aside the idea of building Evil accelerators to find whether Evil is a wave or a particle, this means that in D&D there is a direct tie between certain actions, items and creatures, and morality itself. A link which doesn't depend on human observation - there are things that are Evil or Good even if they don't really do anything evil or good.

A [Good] Outsider is a creature of Good, in a very literal sense. Killing it means destroying a certain amount of Good, or at least dispersing it. This favors Evil and is therefore Evil, much like destroying a Good artefact or casting Unhallow. Regardless of whether the outsider was free-willed or not, though if he was, it certainly makes the act even more evil.

And again - despite all of this, circumstances can arise that can tilt even those scales over to Good.

 

[WayneLigon]

Sound like your GM is going for a more Constantine-like 'Good might be Good or it might simply be good. Creatures of Good might well turn on the very creatures they are suppossed to protect if it advances their own agenda' -type universe. If that's the case, then it's probably a good (but maybe not Good) thing you killed it. If he's not aiming for that kind of deconstruction, you might as well get used to being a Bator's towel boy in the afterlife.

I'd find out from the GM what his take in it is, and what his universe is like.

As for why the demons involved in the war are not redeemed for killing other demons, I think the answer for that comes from their motivation. Most are doing it because they were told to, which is in itself an evil act, or because of hatred of the other side, which is an evil act, or because they want the area the others occupy, which is an evil act. That's part of the nature of evil; often it perpetuates itself in that manner.

 

[Hammerhead]

SPOILER WARNING for Constantine

But the thing about Gabriel's actions in that movie was that they weren't good. They were evil. She tried to bring about the Apocalypse to make humanity more deserving of God's love. And Gabriel's ultimate fate at the end of the movie show that they were evil as well, given her punishment. I fail to see the distinction between Good and good.

Furthermore, I can't see how fighting for your own life from someone who selfishly wishes to end it could be considered evil.

 

[Corvidae]

My question would definately be how did this creature of innate goodness seek to usher about the end of the world as a good act. I mean, did it seek to destroy evil piece by piece until all that remained was goodness, or did it seek to simply wipe the slate clean.

As for the constantine like atmosphere, I would recommend reading at least parts of "paradise lost" which I think constantine was based on. In paradise lost, not serving good is evil, and trying to thwart evil is good. There is no nuetral ground, every act is one or the other. In the movie constantine, I think gabriel would be cast from heaven for putting its plan above the greater plan.

Now that I have that out of my system, did you do anything effective? I mean, did destroying this innately good creature bring about the good that you wanted, did it save the world? Or was the worlds end coming thousands of years from now, and the deva was just doing its part. Or even better, was what the deva was doing actually bringing about the end of the world, or would the end happen anyway, and the deva was making sure that it ended with good as the victor.

Now you are in a real gray area mess. Do you know the circumstances, do you trust good more than evil, do you trust that good is good, or do you think that good is just another way of thinking.

Let me know how it turned out,
and just so you know,
I think killing unfallen good would be an evil act

Thanks
John

 

[WayneLigon]

I fail to see the distinction between Good and good.

Furthermore, I can't see how fighting for your own life from someone who selfishly wishes to end it could be considered evil.

The actions were good to Gabriel, though, which is what I meant -- 'Good' being the normal kind of D&D alignment 'Good' and 'good' being the morally-grey 'my ends justify what I'm doing and thus I think I'm Good when I'm really not'. Gabriel, despite being an angel and a creature that in normal canon D&D would be 'Always Good' was able and capable of being Not Good. Killing a Gabriel that was a creature who was 'Always Good' would be an evil act. Killing the Gabriel we saw in the film certainly would not be.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

"Every time you hear a child cry, know that it is you who caused it. Every time a dragon burns down a village, remember that their lives are on your conscious. I could have prevented this. I could have made the world a better place. But by killing me, you have made evil that much more powerful. You do not have my anger. But you and every creature in your world have my sympathies -- by your damnable actions, you have allowed a demon to be freed, a woman to be raped, a halfling to be starved, a town to be killed by their friends and family animated as undead...it is your fault that these will happen. I have no mercy for your wicked, selfish souls."

Yeah? Well, let me introduce you to Marie. She's four years old. She likes kitties and gumdrops. Wave to the couatl, Marie. Isn't she sweet? She's not a charred mass of seared fat and bones because I stopped you from annihilating her, in the interests of "making the world a better place". My conscience is clear, you self-aggrandizing scaly bastard. Now that I've stopped you from killing this town full of innocent people, I've got to go put a stop to the war that's just started, slay a freed demon, save a woman from a rapist, feed a halfling, and save (or bury) a town. The work of the righteous is never done, especially with short-sighted outsiders always thinking that they know the shortest path to universal harmony.

 

[Mystery Man]

Yeah? Well, let me introduce you to Marie. She's four years old. She likes kitties and gumdrops. Wave to the couatl, Marie. Isn't she sweet? She's not a charred mass of seared fat and bones because I stopped you from annihilating her, in the interests of "making the world a better place". My conscience is clear, you self-aggrandizing scaly bastard. Now that I've stopped you from killing this town full of innocent people, I've got to go put a stop to the war that's just started, slay a freed demon, save a woman from a rapist, feed a halfling, and save (or bury) a town. The work of the righteous is never done, especially with short-sighted outsiders always thinking that they know the shortest path to universal harmony.

Yeah but what if all that stuff happened at the exact same time the deva died. Now you're screwed.

stir..stir..