BTW y'all do know that IRL an Industrial Revolution happened exactly once in all of human history, right? And it doesn't seem to have been a result of technological progress, since other areas like China did have a comparable technology suite without an IR. First and foremost it's a particular mindset that took root in Western Europe, especially in England and Scotland, around the end of the 17th century. I know we tend to play D&D as 'modern people in medieval costume' - but without that modern mindset there simply is no precedent for an IR.
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Is Magic a Setting Element or a Plot Device
- Thread starter Hussar
- Start date
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I can certainly agree with that. But wouldn't a world where magic worked, communications would spread more rapidly, thus IR might not be limited to one geographic location for long. Considering that IR began around the 18th century. In our modern standards, it would still require word of mouth by ship of sail speed to globalize any concept.
In a world where teleportation and other extraordinary means of information dispersal is a possibility, you don't have to wait for a foreign ship to bring the news that an IR has actually begun elsewhere in the world. It isn't the same as the real world, so it would be difficult to compare what would happen, based any kind real world historical perspective.
Pentius
First Post
Well, with how overwhelmingly powerful a caster is compared to a non-caster, every middling and higher sized government is going to have wizards on staff. If they don't, they'd get taken over by the ones that did. But even if the instigating nation found themselves facing a larger force(of casters), I find myself doubting that the numbers would stay skewed if they made it clear they needed help, and were going to pave the way for an era where that help would be able to get very, very rich using skills they already have.
Clerics vs. Wizards is a cool idea, but I doubt it would come out that clean. Clerics are people, too, and thus vulnerable to greed, but even beyond that, Clerics have a potential ethical impetus to industrialize. Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Cure Wounds, the mass production and distribution of these spells would save a lot of lives, and reduce hardship i countless more. And that's just those three.
S'mon's post made me think for a second. We've all been discussing this as magic would indeed be a revolution, that is, one day everyone is using it genre-standard, then the next, suddenly a dozen or more established spells are found to be profitable. Then the existing infrastructure reacts. But really, wouldn't it be a slow, evolutionary process?
Eh, it's all kinda fun to speculate on, but the core issue just isn't solved by one of us answering the question of why it has or hasn't happened in a given world. The issue is that the question is valid at all.
Hussar
Legend
Step aside from casters for a second.
Infravision/darkvision. Think for a moment how incredibly earth shattering that would be if you had a segment of your population that can see clearly in the dark.
Who needs an industrial revolution? I can have a 24 hour factory right out of the chute. I don't even need to spend money on lighting. I can build castles, dig mines, weave fabric, whatever, 24/7 instead of waiting on daylight.
Now, those races could be slave labour, they could be paid labour, who knows? Doesn't really matter. It's a HUGE resource that would change the way history worked right off the bat.
Who needs industry? Rome managed to build all sorts of stuff. The Persians were pretty good at it too. China managed to conquer pretty much all its neighbours before they shut the doors. The only thing holding the Aztecs back was a lack of heavy draft animals and they still managed to build massive cities and roadways thousands of miles long.
I don't need an post-industrial revolution setting to have a changed world. All I have to do is actually LOOK at the existing one. As I said, infravision/darkvision would have a huge impact on the world. Imagine what the Romans could have done if they could have had a 3 shift rotation. The Egyptians built pyramids. Now imagine that those pyramids REALLY worked, that they really were gates into the underworld and that their pharaohs really were deities.
Industrial revolution? Who needs it? I don't need any silly finger wiggling casters to completely rework the world. There's just so many things that should change the game world that we sweep under the rug in the name of genre convention.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
While you may have different interests. For me I don't want to play industrial revolution. So it's not that I don't think the differences between half-orc vision and normal human vision (in a world without those with darkvision) would engender a difference in cultural/technological development of world society for any civic development project and/or initiation of an industrial revolution.
Its just that I don't want to play industrial revolution - or really any world changing concept. I just want to play dark ages mentality D&D.
Its not that I sweep those concepts under the rug. As a GM I have no interest in developing those concepts to play in my game. I play to have fun, not to pursue some logic game based on D&D differences to reality and rework how alter our real world to rejigger the world to compensate.
I would have said, "Who the Hell wants to play that?", but then I'm sure somebody would - I do not.
Hussar
Legend
Oh and totally fair enough. Actually, I'm pretty content most of the time playing baseline vanilla D&D too.
Like I said WAYYY back at the outset, I'm not advocation one or the other. Whether you characterize it as plot point vs setting element or mundane vs mythical, there's no right or wrong answer here.
You're comfortable with fantastic as plot point. Certain races get darkvision/infravision and that's the long and the short of it. Most of the time I'm in the same boat. It's a perfectly fine point of view and a lot of fun.
I do find, though, that game worlds become a lot more interesting for me if these things are taken into account.
jmucchiello
Hero
(Only read the first 3 and last pages...)
I'm surprised this conversation didn't expand out in something Superheroes. In a supers wold, there are fantasic technologies that large mega-corporations develop and are then only used by Superb Man. Take for example Marvel's Pym particles or Unstable Molecules. Pym particles would revolutionize the shipping industry.
And unstable molecules would similarly change the world of Fashion.
Super genre writers explain this lack of exploitation by saying the supers in question contribute to the successful use of the seemingly natural resource. Only Reed Richards can create garments out of unstable molecules and only Hank Pym (and a few others) can change size with Pym particles. And that explains why the world has not become a completely foreign place. Just because Tony Stark can miniaturize and weaponize steel into a body hugging armored suit, doesn't mean just any one can do it.
I'm surprised this conversation didn't expand out in something Superheroes. In a supers wold, there are fantasic technologies that large mega-corporations develop and are then only used by Superb Man. Take for example Marvel's Pym particles or Unstable Molecules. Pym particles would revolutionize the shipping industry.
And unstable molecules would similarly change the world of Fashion.
Super genre writers explain this lack of exploitation by saying the supers in question contribute to the successful use of the seemingly natural resource. Only Reed Richards can create garments out of unstable molecules and only Hank Pym (and a few others) can change size with Pym particles. And that explains why the world has not become a completely foreign place. Just because Tony Stark can miniaturize and weaponize steel into a body hugging armored suit, doesn't mean just any one can do it.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Looking through a real world lens, feudal Japan had a Ministry of Onmyodo, as a branch of the imperial government, essentially a Department of Magic. Onmyoji wizards were taoist based arcane practitioners whose 'schools of magic' were primarily astrological predictions, determining the cycle of lucky and unlucky days in the coming year and arranging important events to coincide with the lucky days, also exorcisms/blessings of the imperial court to protect it from evil spirits during the New Years fest. They were the crafters for each year's calendar.
Not saying magic was real, but ancient Japanese believed it was real, and they maintained magic through imperial control. They did this to control who could become a wizard, who could study and/or advance their studies, where each wizard was assigned, etc. The Japanese government wanted to utilize the power of magic, but also very much wanted to control it and minimize its availability to the greater public as well as external powers - China, Korea, etc.
If somebody practiced magic and were not associated with the Ministry of Onmyodo, such as a commoner sorcerer or witch, they could expect the same treatment that accused witches in Salem were getting - swinging from a tree.
So here's a situation where perceived magical power existed (not really, perceived only) and rather than proliferate into society to create some new age of arcane technological advancement, they chose the opposite and kept it close to imperial control. They wanted to access arcane powers, but they didn't want everyone to access it.
I'm of the opinion, that in a D&D world, the authorities in charge of most nations would want to control magic for themselves, and not allow its use by everyone, thereby preventing the possibility of an industrial revolution due to arcane-technological advancement. I don't see it happening.
Not saying magic was real, but ancient Japanese believed it was real, and they maintained magic through imperial control. They did this to control who could become a wizard, who could study and/or advance their studies, where each wizard was assigned, etc. The Japanese government wanted to utilize the power of magic, but also very much wanted to control it and minimize its availability to the greater public as well as external powers - China, Korea, etc.
If somebody practiced magic and were not associated with the Ministry of Onmyodo, such as a commoner sorcerer or witch, they could expect the same treatment that accused witches in Salem were getting - swinging from a tree.
So here's a situation where perceived magical power existed (not really, perceived only) and rather than proliferate into society to create some new age of arcane technological advancement, they chose the opposite and kept it close to imperial control. They wanted to access arcane powers, but they didn't want everyone to access it.
I'm of the opinion, that in a D&D world, the authorities in charge of most nations would want to control magic for themselves, and not allow its use by everyone, thereby preventing the possibility of an industrial revolution due to arcane-technological advancement. I don't see it happening.
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Pentius
First Post
Yeah, but here's the thing: in a D&D world the magic really does work. The authorities might be keeping it for their use, but it is still working. Even just Wall of Iron, even just in government hands, changes base assumptions about a world. For example, iron production in such a world doesn't need to have any ties to geography. A nation with no mines or even potential mines in their territory could, with access to the spell, dominate the iron trade. And if some other nation wanted to cut in, it wouldn't be more mines they'd look for, it's more wizards.
Why would the governments, who recognize magic as powerful and important enough to keep it to themselves, not be both using it, and trying to figure out new ways to use it? Such use would doubtless affect commoner's lives, even if it weren't the commoners themselves using the magic. They could just use the product. I mean, look at our world. How many of us commoners know how to create and recreate the tech that shapes our daily lives? I sure don't. I can use a computer, and I could probably build one if I had the parts, but I couldn't fabricate a microchip.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
They would be doing this, just not let it out of control into the private sector, as in US gov't building secret technology for the military or what have you, but not released into the public for public consumption. They would do it inhouse, if possible, and not let it lead into an industrial revolution. For that to happen an entire people and infrastructure is needed to support wide spread production processes, etc.
But really, as stated on a previous post, I'm not an advocate for the idea of magical industrial revolution. I'm not saying its not possible, I'm saying I could care less (not to sound snarky) - its not a plotline or setting development idea I am even remotely interested.
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