Is math a flaw?

[S'mon]

I turned Runequest into d% roll high (eg d%+attack skill, beat both 100 & d%+parry to hit) and it worked fine. IMO my brain at least copes ok with adding two 2-digit numbers to get a three digit number. Running higher level 4e I'm finding it much harder to do three-figure combat subtractions, 124-37 sort of stuff. Apparently this is normal.

 

[SiderisAnon]

Remember that every die you roll, every number you add, every bit of math you add extends not just the complexity of the game but also the time a single action takes. It also does not do it in a pure one to one ratio either. The difference in speed is smaller between between 1d20 and 1d20+# than it is between 1d20+# and 1d20+#+#.

If you're going to add any additional step, make sure it's worth it.

As for adding three-digit numbers at the table, most of the gamers I know would balk at it. Many severely. Adding several two-digit numbers would probably be too much for a lot of gaming groups. I know plenty of long term players who struggle to add 3d6 together when rolling damage, let alone 1d8+#+# to reflect various bonuses.


In the end, the game would have to be pretty awesome for me to even consider playing it where adding multiple three-digit numbers together is required. I also guarantee everyone at the table would have a calculator at hand. (And some of the people I've gamed with in the past year still could not handle the three-digit math regularly with a calculator.)

Yeah, the game would have to be really, really awesome for me to even pitch it to my play group.

 

[Jhaelen]

Is this a flaw? Would you buy or play a game that expected you to add or subtract those numbers in your head? If you found yourself frequently reaching for a calculator [app], would you resent it?

If you intend to reach a wide audience it would be best to rethink your system.

You haven't explained what the advantages of your system are that make it necessary for players to regularly make (difficult) calculations.

If YOU as the game's developer are good at calculating porobabilities, maybe there's a way to find a method to achieve the same thing using a method that is easier on the players?

I consider myself to be quite good at math and doing calculations in my head, so a game that would require me to use a calulator would be a definite no go. The system might be intriguing as a basis for a video game but it's most likely unusable as a table-top game.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Two digit calculations in RQ2 were fine, probably partly because they were in increments of 5(%)

I think regular 3 digit calculations would be a dealbreaker for a game. Certainly enough that it would be worthy considering alternatives.

Cheers

 

[amerigoV]

Is this a flaw? Would you buy or play a game that expected you to add or subtract those numbers in your head? If you found yourself frequently reaching for a calculator [app], would you resent it?

I'm knee-deep in this thing with designs on making it my job and I suddenly feel as if I've made a horrible mistake.

I've been down that path with a homebrew system - I hate to say iit, but its a flaw. It really comes to the forefront after a long day of work and you game in the evening. 87 + 14 -23 is...er....hey, pass the cheetos!

Those that are not into numbers will hate it even more.

 

[Blackbrrd]

It's a flaw. Go with 1d10 instead!

 

[Umbran]

Finer control over differences in ability,

I cannot speak to the last of those, but consider:

How often are you actually going to notice less than a 5% difference in ability? I'm not talking about having the satisfaction of fine-grained control when you build, but how often is it going to mean different results in play?

 

[Ron]

I have some experience playing and GMing Rolemaster, which requires summing numbers with three digits all the time. The thing is, most of the players were engineers and have little problem with these operations. However, less mathematical inclined people, such as the lawyer player really had a poor time adding those numbers.

Never assumes that your experience will translate perfectly to others. I don't think it is broken but it will reduce the audience to your game.

 

[Celebrim]

No time for a 'hi, im new lol' thread. I have issues to discuss.

I've been working on a system for a few weeks now. At it's core, the system's challenge resolution mechanic is 'd100 roll high'. It's almost like d20 multiplied by 5, which means that mid to high levels frequently involves adding three-digit numbers.

Is this a flaw?

In a nut shell, yes.

The longer answer is, as others said, that its not a flaw its a cost, and the cost in math has to be worth the advantages in game play that it buys.

From my perspective, there is an important distinction to be made between one time costs paid at character creation - what I as a programmer call the 'compile time costs' - and those that occur repeatedly during proposition resolution - what I call the 'run time costs'. Because compile time costs occur infrequently, it's fine for a system to have a math intensive and expensive character creation process provided that you gain equivalent benefits in customability, granularity, and even reduced run time costs (by having many precalculated values). But expensive math during the run time is almost always a bad idea because math slows the human brain down so much (compared to a computer).

An example from gaming I'm fond of is the board game 'Risk'. Played by six human players, a game of 'Risk' can last 12-16 hours. Although this isn't obvious, Risk uses a very computationally expensive process to determine the outcome of battle, repeatedly rolling small quantities of dice and comparing them to each other to incrementally reduce the size of the forces. If you play 'Risk' on a computer with six human players making the decisions, the entire game can be completed in 45 minutes. This means of the 12 hours of play, 11 hours and 15 minutes are taken up by the mechanical action of dice rolling and the computational action of comparing numbers and less than 45 minutes of the game are taken up by decision making and real interaction between the players. Needless to say, I don't play Risk as a board game anymore.

There are things I like about d% systems, among them is the granualarity of 'leveling up' (see BRP/CoC), but a d% system better have very few modifiers to the rolls and certainly your end numbers or modifiers need to be small. My suspicion as a designer is that you've not been exposed to enough game systems to strike out on your own yet, and you are cribbing too much from D20. Two digit addition strikes me as plenty; why are you ever getting up to the levels of three digit addition? Get away from being trapped in D&D thinking. I think you'll find there are ways to make the system work without heavy reliance on run time modifiers. Those run time modifiers in D20 are their to provide granularity, but you need them less because you are providing your granularity on a different front.

Would you buy or play a game that expected you to add or subtract those numbers in your head?

No.

If you found yourself frequently reaching for a calculator [app], would you resent it?

Considering that I can easily add and subtract three digit numbers in my head, if I had to reach for a calculator to resolve an in game proposition (implying the math was even heavier than that), not only would I resent it, but I'd burn the book. The thing you have to consider is that its not the burden you put on the players in the game that really matters. The real constraint is how much burden you put on the GM. If the GM has to run your system for 4-6 (or 30!) opponents simulatenously and manage proposition resolution for the PC's, then it has to be pretty darn simple or it won't survive. If you have heavy math during proposition resolution, you better have a game that depends heavily on low drama for its primary game play and only occasionally dips into its very crunchy combat resolution system for dramatic scenes.

 

[Asmor]

Adding 3-digit numbers is definitely too much to ask. I've gamed with more than one person who took out their cellphone to add d20 + 1-2 digit modifier.

That said, I'm working on my own RPG system where every player is expected to have a calculator (an actual calculator with big rubber buttons, cell phones don't count!). Whenever someone does damage, they're going to be expected to do:

d10xd10 x (decimal) damage modifier / opponent's (integer) toughness.

I'm hoping most people can do the d10xd10 part in their head, but I don't expect people to be able to do e.g. 81 * 1.7 / 13 in their head.