D&D 4E Is PF combat any faster than 4e?

[xenophone]

I played some RPG's growing up (back in the day), but haven't touched them in years. I recently got a bug for some roleplaying, and I picked up some 4ed books and have played some Encounters and LFR adventures.

I have to say that I haven't had as much fun as I thought I would. It seems like the bulk of the time I've spent in these adventures is devoted to combat encounters. Not because there are a lot of encounters in these adventures, but because it tends to take a solid hour to wrap up an encounter. This is at level 1. That strikes me as an insanely long time for a single run-of-the-mill fight. It just doesn't leave much time for roleplaying and skill challenges and such.

Additionally, I don't care for the transition from non-combat to combat. It's jarring, and I lose my sense of immersion in the process. When I think back on a given adventure in my minds eye, I may have some picture painted in my head of a cool skill challenge where we chased a criminal through the crowded streets of Waterdeep (cool!), but when I remember the fights, all I see is miniatures on a battlemap (lame!)

Don't get me wrong, I like tactics and strategy, but if I have to choose between rich tactical encounters and immersive encounters, I'm going with the latter. I can get a deep strategic/tactical experience by playing PC games.

Here is my question. Does Pathfinder solve any of these issues? I know that people frequently use the battle map with Pathfinder, but I've heard that it's not required, and if you don't use it, it can really speed combat up.

I know that there are games out there that move much quicker than either PF or 4e, but I don't have a lot of friends that play, so I'd like to stick with something popular, to facilitate finding a group.

 

[Alan Shutko]

In the games I've played, yes.

 

[gamerprinter]

I guess it depends on your and your DMs familiarity with the rules, but in my experience most combat encounters take 15 - 30 minutes. At higher level when players have more attacks per round, and when large number of opponents are used combined with a large number of summoned creatures - I've seen combats take an hour, yes.

That said, I've never seen a 1st level encounter take an hour in PF, but again it depends on the circumstances, rules familiarity, how many opponents, etc.

Most combats seem to last 3 or 4 rounds, with an expectant 20 minutes to perform in normal conditions...

 

[billd91]

PF is faster for the game's I've played (though I mostly run PF).

Now, part of this depends on the experiences of the players involved. Newbies will look up rules in any system and slow things down, particularly if looking up spells with detailed or long descriptions.

The level of the party also is a factor. Low-level characters have relatively few options and so players take less time deciding on and implementing their plans. Higher level character may take more time with more attacks, more summoned creatures, more subtle effects of spells to look up, and so on.

I also find that combat play goes quicker if you don't sweat position quite so much. Players who are really deliberate with how their PCs move on the battlefield (usually to avoid attacks of opportunity) can take a long time.

 

[pauljathome]

Here is my question. Does Pathfinder solve any of these issues? I know that people frequently use the battle map with Pathfinder, but I've heard that it's not required, and if you don't use it, it can really speed combat up.

Pathfinder combat is definitely faster than 4th edition. On the rough order of twice as fast or so. That said, it is still somewhat slow.

I've been playing a fair bit of PFS recently. In a session that is usually about 3.5 hours of playing time we generally find it no problem at all to finish a scenario (NOT a module, the PFS scenarios are shorter). A very combat oriented scenario (e,g a dungeon crawl) will have a minimum of 6 combat encounters.

In contrast, when I was playing LFR in a slot that was about the same length a scenario pretty much always consisted of exactly 3 combat encounters and 1 skill challenge.

I've almost always used a battle mat with Pathfinder. Although its not actually necessary it still helps everybody to visualize what is going on and still is quite useful.

 

[IronWolf]

Now, part of this depends on the experiences of the players involved. Newbies will look up rules in any system and slow things down, particularly if looking up spells with detailed or long descriptions.

I think this is what is so hard about combat speed questions. It depends on the group and the players/GM in that group. If the players all pay attention, know how their abilities and feats work and are ready on their turn then things will go quite quickly. If your players have to look up the rules for each thing they do and don't start doing so until it is their turn as they debate between two different actions then combat is going to be slow.

 

[Retreater]

I've played a lot of both PF and 4E.

I would say that PF is much faster than 4E. I've played PF up to about level 10 and 4E up to level 8. A single PF combat at level 10 is still faster than the most basic 4E combat (probably even a 1st level combat).

That said, I think that PF is fairly dependent on the battle grid out of the box (that is, unless you make some house rules).

Maybe try looking at a system such as Castles and Crusades. It's d20-based (the same as PF) but doesn't use a battle grid or miniatures. Combats are super-fast with that system (about 5-10 minutes in many cases).

Here's a link for more information about that system Troll Lord Games where you can also find the Quick Start Rules for free.

(FYI, I run two regular 4E campaigns, so I'm not knocking it. It's a fine system. Just doesn't seem to be what you're wanting.)

 

[S'mon]

I think a typical 3e/PF 4 1st level PCs combat with 3 orcs takes about 15 minutes, maybe 3 times longer than in AD&D (5 minutes, less with group initiative), but 1/4 the length of a 4e D&D 4 PCs vs 3 orcs fight (1 hour).

 

[IronWolf]

I've played a lot of both PF and 4E.

I would say that PF is much faster than 4E. I've played PF up to about level 10 and 4E up to level 8. A single PF combat at level 10 is still faster than the most basic 4E combat (probably even a 1st level combat).

I haven't played much 4e. What makes 4e combat so slow?

 

[Rechan]

Now, part of this depends on the experiences of the players involved. Newbies will look up rules in any system and slow things down, particularly if looking up spells with detailed or long descriptions.

It also depends on how fast the player makes decisions. You have the types who have their actions planned out before it's even their turn, and then you have people who haven't thought about it at all until their turn comes up, and they are indecisive as to what to do.