Is PHB 2 really "Core?"

[malraux]

"Beyond players, to play the D&D game you need space to play, rulebooks, and supplies such as dice, paper, pencils, a battle grid, and miniatures."

P.6 DMG


So yes it does say you need mini's

Later on down that page it has a list

WHAT YOU NEED TO PLAY

A place to play

Rulebooks

Dice

Paper and pencils

Battle grid or D&D Dungeon Tiles

Dungeon Master’s Screen

D&D Miniatures

USEFUL ADDITIONS

Character sheets

Snacks

Laptop computer, PDA, smart phone, or digital camera

D&D Insider

Of course, the whole next page is talking about what each of those mean.

Battle Grid: A battle grid is very important for running combat encounters, for reasons outlined in the Player’s Handbook. D&D Dungeon Tiles, a vinyl wet-erase mat with a printed grid, a gridded whiteboard, a cutting mat, or large sheets of gridded paper—any of these can serve as a battle grid. The grid should be marked in 1-inch squares. Ideally, it should measure at least 8 inches by 10 inches, and preferably 11 inches by 17 inches or larger.

Dungeon Master’s Screen: This accessory puts a lot of important information in one place—right in front of you—and also provides you with a way to keep players from seeing the dice rolls you make and the notes you refer to during play.

Miniatures: You need something to place on the battle grid to mark the position of each character and creature in an encounter. D&D Miniatures are ideal. These prepainted plastic figures are three-dimensional representations of the actual people and monsters involved in the battle.

So yeah, they do pimp their own products, but acknowledge that really you just need something.

 

[lutecius]

The Next Big Thing: The "collectible" RPG?

"Never mind editions; didn't anyone get the opportunity attack rules?"

"Uh, nope ... but we do have three different hit point systems. The 'rare' stacks nicely with this 'common' healing chapter."

Funny. But the collectible thing aside, I wish 4e actually had (viable) rule variants.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Of course, the whole next page is talking about what each of those mean.

So yeah, they do pimp their own products, but acknowledge that really you just need something.

Thanks malraux, XP on its way. I figured this was a case of "selective reading."

My favorite something at Gamedays is candy. It's an extra reward when you let the player who scored the kill eat the candy.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

was noting selective about it. I quoted the first thing it said , then listed the list. and yes it does explain it but only later on another page, the list comes after it states you need mini's

So call it selective all you want but it does say you need mini's. It also states you need a battle grid

 

[malraux]

was noting selective about it. I quoted the first thing it said , then listed the list. and yes it does explain it but only later on another page, the list comes after it states you need mini's

So call it selective all you want but it does say you need mini's. It also states you need a battle grid

Ignoring the detailed information half an inch away from the list you quoted is somewhat selective. The list and the detailed info are essentially part of a two page spread. And yes, it states that you need something with 1 inch squares on it.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

was noting selective about it. I quoted the first thing it said , then listed the list. and yes it does explain it but only later on another page, the list comes after it states you need mini's

So call it selective all you want but it does say you need mini's. It also states you need a battle grid

You quoted the section of text that supported your claim instead of posting all of the text related to the subject. What's not selective about that?

Of course they are going to suggest their own product. What intelligent company wouldn't? I don't even blame them for not directly mentioning what 'something' would be instead of the minis.

And if one reads the DMG and gets the message that they are required to have minis to play, said person should be careful watching commercials too because every for-profit company is trying to convince you that you need their product over all others of its kind.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

What does "core" even mean? It's a fairly useless phrase that WotC has tried to coopt in an attempt to convince the more gullible that they need to buy everything. Functionally speaking, though, I can't see any difference in intent between the PHB2 in 4e and the splatbooks in 3e or 2e. They give you more options, most people will probably use them, but it's kinda absurd to believe you can tell people at home what they must use, and even moreso what they must buy and expect them to do it.

The splatbooks would add things specific to one race or one class, generally making it only useful to the one player at the table who uses that race / class. Maybe the DM if the DM wanted to use something in it for NPCs. Some would add new classes, but generally they were aimed at making a few specific classes better.

The new way of doing things is not above criticism, but it is certainly better. The PHB 2 is useful to ANY player looking to make a new character. You have new races and new classes, and they are not necessarily bound to a specific role. The ZZZ Power books, (Martial Power, Divine Power, etc) are useful to all previously published classes using that power source.

I will agree though that Wizards wants to expand what the customer base considers a core book. But you are correct that the books are not strictly necessary to run a 4th edition game.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[tomBitonti]

A good friend of mine taught me that before you have an argument that you define your terms. Nothing is as pointless as arguing for hours and realizing you both agree but were using different definitions for the same word.

And there-in lies a problem: One is actually not supposed to do to much of this. Redefining a Symbol, like f(x) := x^2, that is alright. Redefining words that have accepted meanings is a no-no. Words have definitions, and one really should stick to those definitions. Having too much "when I say X what I mean is ..." harms effective communication.

A problem here is that "core" doesn't have a common meaning that directly applies to the usage that has been invented in application to rule-books. What actual dictionary definition applies when you write "PHBII is a core rulebook".

A part of what is happening is that "core" is being used as a marketing term, and to enforce buy-in to a set of products. As in "You must have core products to play this game. PHBII is a core product. You must buy PHBII."

I think another part of what is happening is a divergence of what is available via the DDI. I presume that that will have all books, and most if not all of the material published through Dungeon and Dragon. For a lot of folks, you buy a couple of books, then sit down and play the game. Maybe, you buy more stuff, but maybe you are satisfied with just the first couple of books and are treating those as a complete game. On the other hand, there is the DDI, with it's ongoing stream of new content. A GM that is not on top of all of what is in the DDI will have a hard time of it when new players join their table.

I think the answer is to give up the word "core" and simply ask, without definition squabbles, "What game materials do I need to play this game", or, "What game materials do I most need to play this game? What materials are useful to have, but that I might go without?"

Thx!

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Ignoring the detailed information half an inch away from the list you quoted is somewhat selective. The list and the detailed info are essentially part of a two page spread. And yes, it states that you need something with 1 inch squares on it.

Well for starters the list was not my information, the quote at the start of page 6 was. The list was an after thought, I went back and edited it in. I did not include the next pages as I did not want to type it and I figed yall could find it as I said what page it started on, simple as that

I really have no dog in the 4e fight, I was just backing up darkmaster when he said it does say you need mini's. Now I am thinking it was just bad wording, mistakes happen in books that size, but yes it does say you need minis.

I was not being selective and was not holding stuff out to prove jack, First paragraph on page six lists mini's as required to play. Now at the bottom of page six it lists D&D mini's , I think that was a flaw, and should have just been mini's. I have no issue with them saleing their own product, but it makes it seem like you need them. In the explanation it gives other ideal but bad wording all round there

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

You quoted the section of text that supported your claim instead of posting all of the text related to the subject. What's not selective about that?

Of course they are going to suggest their own product. What intelligent company wouldn't? I don't even blame them for not directly mentioning what 'something' would be instead of the minis.

And if one reads the DMG and gets the message that they are required to have minis to play, said person should be careful watching commercials too because every for-profit company is trying to convince you that you need their product over all others of its kind.

I repleyed to most of this above, you do make a few points I would like to hit upon.
Pushing the mini line is not the issue, I would have myself. I would have said you need markers, or figures and then pushed my own line as ideal. The confuseion comes from the list saying D&D MINi'S and not just mini's

Another point maybe you can play 4e without mini's be hard and have to hand wave a hella lot really, but as I said above it states you need both a battle grid and mini's to play the game.

Not here to debate pro's and con's of 4e however, but they do say you need mini's and that's all I was saying