Is piracy a serious issue for game developers?
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Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Sammael said:They are being Chaotic, not Evil. Piracy is a matter of ethics, not morals.
Thus, combining all the inflammatory power of Alignment threads with all the inflammatory power of Piracy threads!
Genius!
Psionicist
Explorer
Primitive Screwhead said:
Yes it is. And it's called copyright infringement for precisely this reason. If you steal a car, someone loses his car. If you download copy of X, the developer doesn't lose his copy, rather an imaginary sale. That's why there are different laws for copyright infringement and theft. It's the same thing with tax fraud and stealing, you don't use the same term for the two.
If "piracy" is wrong or not I do not know. I do know however, that in many cases the pirated copy of a work is superior the legit one. A pirated DVD for example has no region coding, is available over the whole world at once, has no annoying ads you cannot fast forward and so on. Most "pirates" I know download the pirated copies because they are BETTER, not because they are cheap and want a free lunch.
Feathercircle
First Post
I don't know how typical my situation is, but I find that piracy is more or less an unavoidable neccessity for me if I continue to take an interest in accquiring gaming products.
I live in a little college in the middle of nowhere, and I have no access to any real transportation to anywhere that's useful from a gaming standpoint. I have no access to any local gaming stores, friendly or otherwise, or even any bookstores within a radius of at least twenty miles. Aside from summer and winter break, I cannot buy hard copies of any D&D books. As a result, the internet is wonderful for me- most of the gaming companies sell .pdf versions of their books, and I can even find .pdfs of old 2E or 3E out of print products which even a good bookstore wouldn't usually carry.
But for all their advantages, online .pdf stores have a major disadvantage- there's no way to 'try before I buy', no way to leaf through a book to get a sense of what the quality level is or if it will be of any use to me in my campaign. Reviews from other people can only go so far- what they value in a book isn't neccessarily what I value. With some products from some publishers, I know even without looking that it's what I want. Snagging something like the Draconomicon or some of the old Planescape line is a no-brainer, and totally worth the price. With others... well, if I download Unveiled Masters or the Book of Exalted Deeds or the 2E Psionics Handbook and find it lacking, I can't exactly take it back with a reciept and ask for my money back. The lower cost of .pdfs helps to mitigate that, but if I downloaded anything that looked interesting, the costs would still add up.
As a result, I snatch pirated copies of these .pdfs off of the internet, leaf through them so I can decide if they're what I'm looking for, and then either delete them or delete and go find a store online where I can buy a legal copy. This way companies that produce stuff that's good still get my money, and I don't wind up supporting products that I never would have paid for if I'd been able to look at them properly before purchase.
For big name publishers like WotC or Mongoose and the like, the lost revenue from the people who don't pay back for the pdfs they keep is negligible- most of their money comes from the sale of the hard copy books anyway... and it's potentially arguable that some the people who are pirating aren't always customers anyway and wouldn't buy the product if they couldn't get it free. For small publishers, who make their earnings largely or even solely off of .pdfs, the problem is potentially greater.... I know that not everyone pirating does so for the same reasons as I do or is as honest about paying for stuff as I am, but until companies find some way to solve the "sealed box" problem of online pdfs, I don't really see an alternative, at least for me. I don't really have any suggestions as to how to deal with it- if you make things more piracy-proof, it's usually only a delaying measure- sooner or later someone will figure out how to get past it.
I'd really like to see someone somewhere do a study on if revenues are being lost as a result of piracy, and if so, how much... if anyone has seen any data published about this already, I'd be interested.
I live in a little college in the middle of nowhere, and I have no access to any real transportation to anywhere that's useful from a gaming standpoint. I have no access to any local gaming stores, friendly or otherwise, or even any bookstores within a radius of at least twenty miles. Aside from summer and winter break, I cannot buy hard copies of any D&D books. As a result, the internet is wonderful for me- most of the gaming companies sell .pdf versions of their books, and I can even find .pdfs of old 2E or 3E out of print products which even a good bookstore wouldn't usually carry.
But for all their advantages, online .pdf stores have a major disadvantage- there's no way to 'try before I buy', no way to leaf through a book to get a sense of what the quality level is or if it will be of any use to me in my campaign. Reviews from other people can only go so far- what they value in a book isn't neccessarily what I value. With some products from some publishers, I know even without looking that it's what I want. Snagging something like the Draconomicon or some of the old Planescape line is a no-brainer, and totally worth the price. With others... well, if I download Unveiled Masters or the Book of Exalted Deeds or the 2E Psionics Handbook and find it lacking, I can't exactly take it back with a reciept and ask for my money back. The lower cost of .pdfs helps to mitigate that, but if I downloaded anything that looked interesting, the costs would still add up.
As a result, I snatch pirated copies of these .pdfs off of the internet, leaf through them so I can decide if they're what I'm looking for, and then either delete them or delete and go find a store online where I can buy a legal copy. This way companies that produce stuff that's good still get my money, and I don't wind up supporting products that I never would have paid for if I'd been able to look at them properly before purchase.
For big name publishers like WotC or Mongoose and the like, the lost revenue from the people who don't pay back for the pdfs they keep is negligible- most of their money comes from the sale of the hard copy books anyway... and it's potentially arguable that some the people who are pirating aren't always customers anyway and wouldn't buy the product if they couldn't get it free. For small publishers, who make their earnings largely or even solely off of .pdfs, the problem is potentially greater.... I know that not everyone pirating does so for the same reasons as I do or is as honest about paying for stuff as I am, but until companies find some way to solve the "sealed box" problem of online pdfs, I don't really see an alternative, at least for me. I don't really have any suggestions as to how to deal with it- if you make things more piracy-proof, it's usually only a delaying measure- sooner or later someone will figure out how to get past it.
I'd really like to see someone somewhere do a study on if revenues are being lost as a result of piracy, and if so, how much... if anyone has seen any data published about this already, I'd be interested.
shaylon
First Post
I have to agree with Phil's statement. Guys in the pdf market are hurt more than a large company like Hasbro.
I think most people who pirate or illegally download really had no intention of ever buying the product in the first place, so in Wotc's case that brings exposure as Der_Kluge mentioned. He read a pdf copy of CW and bought it. If you get a illegal copy of Phil's 101 series, you aren't likely to go and buy another pdf of that just to show support.
I typically don't steal stuff from any publisher, although I would certainly buy from a small print house before taking an opportunity to steal from them. Using Phil as an example again, I really like his stuff. Every product of his that I have seen has been extremely useful. I would hate to download all of his stuff for free and then have him quit the game because he wasn't making money.
Now, as far as music goes, I used Napster back in the day, and I did have some mp3s of songs I did not own, although I mostly used it to get "Live" versions of songs and older stuff that was hard to find. My biggest problem with the RIAA outcry was that a band like Mettalica spearheaded it. One of the richest bands in the world had Lars out there crying on TV about how we are stealing from him. I was pretty upset about that, and haven't seen Metallica nor bought an album since. I won't support them now because of how they reacted. Many smaller bands that started out at the height of Napster had albums sell because of Napster's exposure. Studies show that CD sales declined after napster was "shutdown". I can't prove that the decline was because of Napster, but I know that I rarely by music cd's at all anymore; I listen the the radio. I would rather the music industry never see a dime of my money. They lost an antitrust suit because they ripped people off when CD's came out, and when sales declined they needed something to blame. I think a better target to blame would be all the lame bands and pop singers of the late 90's that they tried to force down our throats.
On the subject of movies, they blame college kids downloading movies for decline in theater seats, failing to look at other issues. To be sure these downloaders are an impact, but what about movie prices? It is a fact that most movies are on DVD inside of 6 months from realease, and the price of a new release DVD can be under 20 dollars depending on where you buy. DVD quality and a nice big TV with home theater can nearly replicate the theater experience, which many people have. So my girlfriend and I go to see a movie, get popcorn, and two drinks. Here in Columbus if you make the matinee show would cost about 20 dollars, about 28 if you go at night. So I can buy a DVD and watch this movie over and over or rent it and watch as many times as I want over 2-3 day period and they wonder why I don't go to the movies?
A couple of people have mentioned that prices can go up based on theft and that is true, but let me pose a question. Do you think that if they eliminated theft that the prices would go down? I mean DVD copy protection was supposed to eliminate theft, of course it didn't work for long, but did you see a cut in DVD prices? I once read that computers are stolen regularly from shipping companies moving them and if they could elminate that theft computer prices would dramatically drop in price. Computers did drop in price because demand to get machines in everyone's hands caused the companies who make parts to find ways to make things much cheaper. Integrating sound, video, and network onto the motherboard are some of the ways they made things more cost effective.
Well, I think I am getting a bit off track. I hope I didn't offend anyone here, wasn't trying to at all. Just some thoughts and my opinions about the matter.
Oh, in case the message wasn't clear. I don't steal, nor advocate it, but I think that some of the parties that cried out the most about "stealing" need to take a better look at their industry and see if there are other things at fault.
-Shay
I think most people who pirate or illegally download really had no intention of ever buying the product in the first place, so in Wotc's case that brings exposure as Der_Kluge mentioned. He read a pdf copy of CW and bought it. If you get a illegal copy of Phil's 101 series, you aren't likely to go and buy another pdf of that just to show support.
I typically don't steal stuff from any publisher, although I would certainly buy from a small print house before taking an opportunity to steal from them. Using Phil as an example again, I really like his stuff. Every product of his that I have seen has been extremely useful. I would hate to download all of his stuff for free and then have him quit the game because he wasn't making money.
Now, as far as music goes, I used Napster back in the day, and I did have some mp3s of songs I did not own, although I mostly used it to get "Live" versions of songs and older stuff that was hard to find. My biggest problem with the RIAA outcry was that a band like Mettalica spearheaded it. One of the richest bands in the world had Lars out there crying on TV about how we are stealing from him. I was pretty upset about that, and haven't seen Metallica nor bought an album since. I won't support them now because of how they reacted. Many smaller bands that started out at the height of Napster had albums sell because of Napster's exposure. Studies show that CD sales declined after napster was "shutdown". I can't prove that the decline was because of Napster, but I know that I rarely by music cd's at all anymore; I listen the the radio. I would rather the music industry never see a dime of my money. They lost an antitrust suit because they ripped people off when CD's came out, and when sales declined they needed something to blame. I think a better target to blame would be all the lame bands and pop singers of the late 90's that they tried to force down our throats.
On the subject of movies, they blame college kids downloading movies for decline in theater seats, failing to look at other issues. To be sure these downloaders are an impact, but what about movie prices? It is a fact that most movies are on DVD inside of 6 months from realease, and the price of a new release DVD can be under 20 dollars depending on where you buy. DVD quality and a nice big TV with home theater can nearly replicate the theater experience, which many people have. So my girlfriend and I go to see a movie, get popcorn, and two drinks. Here in Columbus if you make the matinee show would cost about 20 dollars, about 28 if you go at night. So I can buy a DVD and watch this movie over and over or rent it and watch as many times as I want over 2-3 day period and they wonder why I don't go to the movies?
A couple of people have mentioned that prices can go up based on theft and that is true, but let me pose a question. Do you think that if they eliminated theft that the prices would go down? I mean DVD copy protection was supposed to eliminate theft, of course it didn't work for long, but did you see a cut in DVD prices? I once read that computers are stolen regularly from shipping companies moving them and if they could elminate that theft computer prices would dramatically drop in price. Computers did drop in price because demand to get machines in everyone's hands caused the companies who make parts to find ways to make things much cheaper. Integrating sound, video, and network onto the motherboard are some of the ways they made things more cost effective.
Well, I think I am getting a bit off track. I hope I didn't offend anyone here, wasn't trying to at all. Just some thoughts and my opinions about the matter.
Oh, in case the message wasn't clear. I don't steal, nor advocate it, but I think that some of the parties that cried out the most about "stealing" need to take a better look at their industry and see if there are other things at fault.
-Shay
Re the actual question - does copyright infringement affect game developers - it doesn't seem to directly lose a lot of sales, but I suspect that if there were no unauthorised downloads the authorised download market might be bigger. I suspect there are almost no lost sales of printed copies due to downloading (unlike music, perhaps), but something like the Immortals Bestiary may have lost some sales.
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